Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Cathedral Damaged In Apparent Anti-Gay Exorcism
Star Tribune ^ | November 24, 2004 | Herón Márquez Estrada

Posted on 11/24/2004 9:25:38 AM PST by wallcrawlr

An informal exorcism performed at the Cathedral of St. Paul this month was more profane than sacred and was directed toward gay Catholics, police and church authorities said Tuesday.

They said the ritualistic sprinkling of blessed oil and salt around the church and in donation boxes amounted to costly vandalism and possibly even a hate crime.

The damage was discovered Nov. 7 after the noon mass, and after words were exchanged between members of the Rainbow Sash Alliance, a gay rights group, and the opposing group, Catholics Against Sacrilege.

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: cathedral; cathedralofstpaul; catholiclist; desecration; exorcism; gaycatholics; holycommunion; homosexualagenda; homosexuallist; minnesota; mn; stpaul
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180 ... 241-245 next last
To: arkady_renko; Canticle_of_Deborah
Well I think this is a terrifying statement, Deborah. What in the world are you getting at? That Jesus Christ is MORE present in a 'traditional' consecration? Is Christ divided? He is either present, or He isn't. Whether grace is received has a lot to do with the spiritual state of the receiver, doesn't it?

Of course. But traditionalists have to constantly "one-up" the Novus Ordo.

So Jesus is bigger, better, more tanned, rested, and ready at a Tridentine Mass than at a Novus Ordo Mass.

Or, so they think.

141 posted on 11/24/2004 8:16:27 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 138 | View Replies]

To: arkady_renko

I am talking about the graces which the two Masses bring down from heaven. This is more than evident in the state of the Church today. Using a medical analogy it is similar to using Cipro vs Amoxicillin.

I also have personal experience in the matter which I will not publicly elaborate on.

It is not a matter of degrees of Christ's presence. He is either there or not.


142 posted on 11/24/2004 8:20:52 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 138 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur

In a way, you finally get it.

Good.


143 posted on 11/24/2004 8:21:42 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur

"Or, so they think."

This liberal debate trick is the simple misrepresentation. Just say something that isn't true; who knows, it may stick.


144 posted on 11/24/2004 8:23:37 PM PST by dsc (LIBERALS: If we weren't so darned civilized, there'd be a bounty on them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur

You planning on acknowledging #136?


145 posted on 11/24/2004 8:23:39 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
I also have personal experience in the matter which I will not publicly elaborate on.

An apparition?

146 posted on 11/24/2004 8:28:59 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur

Nope.

Why? You want to start the cause for canonization?


147 posted on 11/24/2004 8:30:50 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah; sinkspur

"You planning on acknowledging #136?"

Not in any appropriate way, certainly.

However, when this subject comes up again, he will repost his 120.


148 posted on 11/24/2004 8:30:50 PM PST by dsc (LIBERALS: If we weren't so darned civilized, there'd be a bounty on them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
"It seems." "Purported letter". "Circumstantial evidence."

No. Your "evidence" is nothing but surmise.

149 posted on 11/24/2004 8:31:05 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: dsc; Canticle_of_Deborah

." It is Christ who acts, not the priest.If the priest has expressed the intention to "Do what the Church does" and never retracted it, his internal disposition is incidental. "

Christ can only act through a vessel (the priest) who is willing to be used for Christ's purpose. While it is true that the hertic or apostate could - in theory - offer a valid mass by consciously projecting the intention of the church - he would have to do so intentionally. For when he falls into unfaith, it cannot be otherwise presumed that he is performing the sacraments with the mind of Christ and his church for the corrrect intention. An intention made 25 years ago cannot necessarliy be presumed to still be true. There must be some manner of conscious affirmation.

It is for that reason that the curhc in the past went to great lengths to remove heretical and apostate priests from ministry - to ensure orthodoxy AND valid sacraments!


150 posted on 11/24/2004 8:34:44 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
It is not a matter of degrees of Christ's presence. He is either there or not.

Well, we have agreement there. It is not my desire nor faith that makes Him there. He is there because He is faithful to His promise.

He was there as a babe in a simple manger; a container used to feed livestock. He is the Food from Heaven - feeding His sheep. High Mass, Low Mass, Tridentine Mass, Novus Ordo Mass... He longs to feed His sheep. He POURS graces out in each Mass.

Sadly, I often only bring a thimble to carry the graces home with me. My fault, not His.

A_R

151 posted on 11/24/2004 8:39:33 PM PST by arkady_renko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
You keep saying "never retracted it".

Let's say there's a priest who no longer believes the doctrines of the Church, specifically regarding transubstantiation. He has no intention of consecrating the Eucharist because he doesn't believe it is possible, or real. Isn't that a "retraction" even if he doesn't formally announce it?

Now let's suppose, not that this could ever happen /sarcasm, this priest becomes an active agent for satan, wouldn't he be more effective as such if everyone in his parish etc. was unaware that he secretly retracted his intention?

152 posted on 11/24/2004 8:42:49 PM PST by murphE (fight terrorism in the womb END ABORTION NOW)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 139 | View Replies]

To: thor76; sinkspur
It seems somebody has forgotten this line....
Secondly, there is the virtual intention. Its force is borrowed entirely from a prior volition which is accounted as continuing in some result produced by it. In other words, the virtual intention is not a present act of the will. but rather a power (virtus) come about as an effect of a former act, and now at work for the attainment of the end. The thing therefore that is wanting in a virtual, as contrasted with an actual, intention is not of course the element of will, but rather the attention of the intellect, and that particularly of the reflex kind. So, for example, a person having made up his mind to undertake a journey may during its progress be entirely preoccupied with other thoughts. He will nevertheless be said to have all the while the virtual intention of reaching his destination. Thirdly, a habitual intention is one that once actually existed, but of the present continuance of which there is no positive trace; the most that can be said of it is that it has never been retracted.

Virtual is sufficient, habitual insufficient. Intention is always presumed when the rite prescribed by the Church is followed, however:

The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. (Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae)

153 posted on 11/24/2004 8:51:21 PM PST by gbcdoj ("I acknowledge everyone who is united with the See of Peter" - St. Jerome)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 134 | View Replies]

To: thor76
While it is true that the hertic or apostate could - in theory - offer a valid mass by consciously projecting the intention of the church - he would have to do so intentionally

If the priest never retracts his intention to "Do as the Church does," it is presumed to be operative. The Sacraments are "ex opere operato." They are valid by the action itself, as long as matter and form are present.

The Church has held, from the beginning, that the disposition of the priest does not affect sacramental validity. Even a laicized priest can confect the Eucharist in cases of danger of death, plague, or mass illness, as long as he "intends to do what the Church does."

In any case, the original objection was to the Novus Ordo, and how NO Masses "might" be invalid.

That is a sinister attempt to undermine the Mass celebrated universally for 35 years. It seems that traddies cannot simply accept the Tridentine Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass.

They must tear down the Novus Ordo and invalidate it.

Why must you destroy the Mass celebrated by John Paul II, the Pope you claim to follow?

154 posted on 11/24/2004 8:52:37 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 150 | View Replies]

Comment #155 Removed by Moderator

To: murphE

If the priest never formally retracts his intention, then his celebration of sacraments is valid.


156 posted on 11/24/2004 8:56:09 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 152 | View Replies]

To: seamole
How about Leo XIII? Is he sufficiently traditional for you?

A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. (Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae)

This obsession with intention is something peculiar to Free Republic. I have never encountered it anywhere else, in 12 years of ministry.

An atheist can baptize a child, in danger of death, but some of you scrupulosies doubt whether a validly ordained priest consecrates the Eucharist!

157 posted on 11/24/2004 9:01:13 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies]

To: seamole; sinkspur
So I'm still a bit flummoxed as to whether the dissent I normally see translates automatically or presumptively into sacramental invalidity.

As long as the minister uses the approved rite, intention is to be presumed. This is true even if the minister is publicly heretical even with regard to the reality of the sacrament in question:

Consequently, others with better reason hold that the minister of a sacrament acts in the person of the whole Church, whose minister he is; while in the words uttered by him, the intention of the Church is expressed; and that this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, except the contrary be expressed on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament. (St. Thomas, Summa theologiae, III q. 64 a. 8)
But if his faith be defective in regard to the very sacrament that he confers, although he believe that no inward effect is caused by the thing done outwardly, yet he does know that the Catholic Church intends to confer a sacrament by that which is outwardly done. Wherefore, his unbelief notwithstanding, he can intend to do what the Church does, albeit he esteem it to be nothing. And such an intention suffices for a sacrament: because as stated above (8, ad 2) the minister of a sacrament acts in the person of the Church by whose faith any defect in the minister's faith is made good. (St. Thomas, Summa theologiae, III q. 64 a. 9)

158 posted on 11/24/2004 9:01:50 PM PST by gbcdoj ("I acknowledge everyone who is united with the See of Peter" - St. Jerome)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies]

To: gbcdoj

One can always count on you to fly in with the theological evidentiaries.


159 posted on 11/24/2004 9:03:55 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: seamole

Thank you for posting that!


160 posted on 11/24/2004 9:05:42 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180 ... 241-245 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson