Who Lost the Ukraine?

NewsMax ^ | 11/23/04 | Dick Morris

[wagglebee]

I think it was his open letter to Hitlery that was the final nail in the coffin.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/6/13/105143.shtml

[Lion in Winter]

Soros is doing the bidding of the EU as I see it. The EU is the enemy of a free USA and a free Russia as I see it. They are a combination of fascism and communism and they really like islamics.

[FreeReign]

At least Putin LIKES George Bush... cannot say that for George Soros and his MOVEON group.

Putin likes Bush? I think Putin is just saying that he likes Bush. His actions contradict what he says.

[Lion in Winter]

You must prefer the EU to the USA if you think ths political situation in the Ukraine will in anyway help the USA.

[wildandcrazyrussian]

Not to mention that most Ukrainians and Russians are ethnically indistinguishable and mutually intelligible, and most "Ukrainians" are people who identify with the common Russian heritage but live in the "South", called the Ukraine, just like millions live elsewhere. Every person I know who is from the Ukraine says they are Russian FROM the Ukraine.

Dick Morris sounds like Stanislav Lunaticev here.

Just in the past month, we have heard accusations that elections in two major countries (USA and Ukraine) must have been fraudulent because the "exit polls" showed the loser ahead. Who cares about exit polls except those who use the supposed news to try to influence perceptions?

[Poohbah]

As bad as the EU is, Putin's Russia is worse.

Putin didn't drop 27 megabucks to defeat Bush. Soros did. And this new guy is a Soros flunky.

Not sure I like either candidate, but Soros is a definite enemy of America for personal profit (the money end of the WoT makes it harder for him to manipulate currencies).

[Poohbah]

Just in the past month, we have heard accusations that elections in two major countries (USA and Ukraine) must have been fraudulent because the "exit polls" showed the loser ahead. Who cares about exit polls except those who use the supposed news to try to influence perceptions?

Ouch. Too close to the truth of the matter here in the States.

[Dan Evans]

It isn't like Ukrainians have any reason to distrust Russia:

"Ukraine's nightmare had begun in 1932. Faced by resistance to collectivization, Stalin unleashed terror upon Ukraine. Moscow dispatched 25,000 fanatical young party militants - earlier versions of Mao's `Red Guards' - to force 10 million Ukrainian peasants into collective farms. Secret police units of OGPU began selective executions of recalcitrant farmers.

When OGPU failed to meet weekly execution quotas, Stalin sent henchman, Lazar Kaganovitch, to destroy Ukrainian resistance. Kaganovitch, the Soviet Eichmann, made quota, shooting 10,000 Ukrainians weekly. Eighty percent of all Ukrainian intellectuals were executed. Ukrainian Nikita Khruschchev helped supervise the slaughter.

But there were simply not enough Chekists (secret police) to kill so many people, so Stalin decided to replace bullets by a much cheaper medium of death, mass starvation.

All seed stocks, grain, silage, and farm animals were confiscated from Ukraine's farms. Ethiopia's communist dictator, Mengistu Haile Mariam, used the very same method in the 1970's to force collectivization: the resulting famine cased one million deaths.

OGPU agents and Red Army troops sealed all roads and rail lines. Nothing came in or out of Ukraine. Farms were searched and looted of food and fuel. Ukrainians quickly began to die of hunger, cold, and sickness.

The precise number of Ukrainians murdered by Stalin's custom-made famine and Cheka firing squads remains unknown to this day. KGB's archives, and recent work by Russian historians, shows at least 7 million Ukrainians died. Ukrainian historians put the figure at 9 million, or higher. Twenty-five percent of Ukraine's population was exterminated."

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/unknhol.htm

[Poohbah]

Then again, they have no real reason to trust a EU dominated by Germany, either. (c8

[GOP_1900AD]

Allow me to correct you. Ukraine has a large East Slav minority due to all the East Slavs who moved there during the Soviet Union days. However, prior to that Ukraine had more in common with Poland and Czechoslovakia. My own grandmother was born there, a God fearing Roman Catholic from a family of 11, 8 of whom stayed there and by now, I've got probably 100 cousins there as a result. Final note, during the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Empire, most of what is now Ukraine was consumed within that particular state.

[FreeReign]

The fair and just solution would be a peaceful DIVORCE. Russian/pro-Russian/Russian speaking/pro-Yanukovich parts, of the Ukraine which are located in the east and the south should join Russia (whether they are 51% or 40%). Western parts should join EU as the Ukraine proper. Kiev could be divided or shared.

That wouldn't be fair to the people of the Ukraine who don't want to join Russia but are forced to.

Any Ukranians who wish to live in a less free country such as Russia -- should move there.

Now that's fair and just.

[GOP_1900AD]

Stop with the disinfo. You are still the minority in the ancestral homeland of one of my grandmothers. Ukraine is closer to Czechosolvakia and Poland, culturally and religiously, than to Russia.

[A. Pole]

Any Ukranians who wish to live in a less free country such as Russia -- should move there.

Are the people "liberated" by NATO/EU in Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo more free than before?

[California Patriot]

Thanks for posting this. Historical context always helps, for those who take an interest. I imagine some of the people slamming Yuschenko on this thread barely know anything about Ukraine's history.

In any case, the ignorance of many of the FReepers on this thread is appalling. They can't see past the supposed Soros connection and Putin's supposed support for the war on terror. They probably don't know the significance of Vaclav Havel supporting Yuschenko, implicitly to the point of revolution.

It is obvious to me that Yuschenko is the good guy here.

[FreeReign]

You must prefer the EU to the USA if you think ths political situation in the Ukraine will in anyway help the USA.

Your sentence doesn't follow from anything that I said -- it doesn't even make sense.

Ping me when you've got something.

[GOP_1900AD]

Crimes which are still untried, unpunished and unforgiven. Most of the perps have passed on. Of course, newer crimes have occurred. Putin and others still in power are the perps.

[Poohbah]

They can't see past the supposed Soros connection

Supposed, my a$$.

[Bernard Marx]

Putin is a scary guy and looks hell bent on reconquering the original empire by hook or crook.

I've wondered for years how anyone could be so naive as to think a KGB guy -- no matter how fit and Western-appearing -- could be anything but what he is. I learned long ago to watch what politicians do, not what they say. Pootie-Poot has been doing some might unfriendly stuff.

[California Patriot]

Agreed. Lion's post is absurd. The quality of discussion on this thread is appalling, an embarrassment to FReep.

[Mmmike]

Heck, Putin has the most stone-cold terrifying stare I have ever seen.