Vindicating the Serbian People: An 'Aerial' Counter-Attack

Serbianna ^ | Friday, November 12, 2004 | T.V. Weber

[Hoplite]

There were 45 victims total, and 40 autopsies, yes?

I was never able to figure out whether the discrepant 5 corpses were taken by the K Albanians or kept by the Serbs.

[Paratrooper_501]

No corpse was beheaded - no corpse was skinned - no corpse was mutilated at Racak per the Ranta's EU autopsy report of the Racak corpses. Dude, you are soooo busted.

Just like John Kerry. LOL

[Paratrooper_501]

I don't know about the autopsies but I believe your victim total is correct. To be honest, I didn't see evidence of mutilations other than being shot in the head. One guy's head was skinned and my thought that day was that it had been chewed by animals. One other man's head was blown up which I thought may have been caused by one of the rifle launched grenades the MUPs carried. We didn't see anything like "eyes gouges out". While there were a couple whose eyes were out, it seemed clear at the time that it was the result of gunshot wounds.

[Destro]

Changing your tune now? You stated you saw a skinned Albanian corpse - now you say at the time you t hough an animal did it. Make up a lie and stick to it.

6. The wounds caused by shots were to all sides and parts of the bodies and from various directions. (crossfire)

8. There were no signs of the use of either sharp or blunt weapons on any of the bodies, either pre or post mortem. (no abuse of the bodies - no hands on killing)

9. No trace of gunpowder was seen on any of the bodies; there were two wounds where it was not possible to establish with certainty the distance from which the wounds had been inflicted. (No close range killing took place)

[killjoy]

Too bad for Vince Foster, their files were in his office. It really was lucky that HC timed the raid in Waco to correspond with the second trial of the LA police, otherwise the news media might have pressed Reno to release the files like she promised, but because of Waco the files were never released, and we're all stuck with the Warren Commission Report.

In order to NOT have a logical fallacy here, can you 100% without question say that if it was not for the second LA trial that Waco would not have occured? Can you offer evidence to back this up? Just because one thing follows another does not mean they are connected.

[Paratrooper_501]

I only said I saw a head that was skinned, not an entire corpse. I stick by that. I saw a head with no skin on it. Please tell me a better word for that condition than "skinned".

[wonders]

We had no agenda except the truth. I would like to see you back up this assertion.

State always has an agenda. It's their business to have one, and that's what we pay them for. It might be what we consider a benign agenda (for example, the agenda to get or keep certain other nations "on board" with us in the fight against terrorism). Walker's masters had an agenda for him back when he was in El Salvador. Albright and Holbrooke had an agenda in former Yugoslavia. One may agree or disagree with the agenda, but there is no denying there was one. I've no doubt that your own personal agenda may well have been the truth.

That said, I owe you an apology. I didn't bother to go back and read all your posts and assumed you might not be who you claimed to be (that happens from time to time) and it was a simple matter for you to post widely-published "facts" claiming them as first-hand knowledge. I should have gone back and read more before posting, and for that I apologise. (And my excuse for not doing so was I was soon leaving for Mass - blush, blush, blush -- not very Christian of me, eh?)

Also, this is a very weird thread full of Waco and all sorts of wild conspiracy theories. And I found the original article is too strange to even read.

I hope you will accept my apology. Now, I am interested in your first-hand experience about what really happened at Racak. Thank you for the information you posted in your #97.

They said everyone had run away and SIGNIFICANTLY they told us the MUPs had rounded up a bunch of the men and taken them away.

You are right. This is most significant. The available published accounts (and we have nitpicked through many, many of them on this forum)either left this out, or actually stated the opposite. This was one of the things that had always bugged me about Racak. It was inconceivable to me that the villagers would not have told or asked the international monitors about any "arrests" that afternoon.

I have a few questions to ask you, if you don't mind. I have never been interested in the white hats and have always thought the white hat business happened just as you described. I also never thought the clothes were changed on the bodies (in fact always found that ridiculous), and I don't think the bodies were all moved to the gulley. So I have no questions about those things. I also believe that the animal activity accounts for some observers' assertions that the bodies had been mutilated. I also believe said observers were not fabricating, but simply inexperienced in dealing with bodies left out in the open.

I'll start with this question on terrain: My understanding of the massacre site, the infamous "gully" or "wash", is that it was located upland and to the south of the village of Racak. It is also my understanding that the KLA position on the "high ground" above Racak commanded this gully. According to the villagers' accounts in the HRW report, one group of MUP were waiting for the victims at the gully, and another group of MUP herded the victims toward the gully and the waiting MUP who fired downhill into the victims. My question is, would the MUP in and approaching the gully not have been in range of the KLA above? Accounts I have read indicated they were. Can you enlighten me?

[wonders]

Please tell me a better word for that condition than "skinned".

How about "flayed"? (It's a joke. Laugh guys.)

[A. Pole]

You really should try harder to keep your story straight.

What was your previous name on FR?

[Destro]

I also believe that the animal activity accounts for some observers' assertions that the bodies had been mutilated.

The EU autopsy report confirms (no leap of faith is required) that the mutilations Walker and his bunch talked up for the cameras were in fact the activity of animals. That the "Walker observers" sought to instead jump the gun (benefit of doubt that they were looking for the truth - which I don't think they were) and blame the Serbs and creating an atrocity out of a battle sight.

I also do not think the clothes were changed - what prompted the Serbian side to charge this was the case was that the corpses started to sport white skull hats of the devout Muslim. It seemed too pat. Now we see the genisis of this charge? (I have always thought thatthe hats were placed on to make the dead look more like "civilians")

Lastly, the fact that the EU autopsy report showed "wounds caused by shots were to all sides and parts of the bodies and from various directions" and "there were no signs of the use of either sharp or blunt weapons on any of the bodies, either pre or post mortem" and finally "no trace of gunpowder was seen on any of the bodies; there were two wounds where it was not possible to establish with certainty the distance from which the wounds had been inflicted" point out causes of death not frm executions but the result of a fire fight - more like the dead were caught in a crossfire between the Serbs and the KLA?

[wonders]

Oops. I just realised maybe my #189 sounds macabre. It wasn't meant that way at all. I just meant to poke fun at Destro's needling about the "skinned" word (not poke fun at anyone). Back to work for me. Have a nice day, all.

[Destro]

He implied (as you can read) that the Serbs did the skinning with an outraged sounding post. Why bring up a detail he now admits nature was responsible for unless it was done to besmirch the Serbs?

I wonder if he is legit did we open his eyes a little regarding Racak?

[Hoplite]

Try your "shrapnel" theory again, Destro.

[Destro]

The EU autopsy report confirms (no leap of faith is required) that the mutilations Walker and his bunch talked up for the cameras were in fact the activity of animals. That the "Walker observers" sought to instead jump the gun (benefit of doubt that they were looking for the truth - which I don't think they were) and blame the Serbs and creating an atrocity out of a battle sight -insert- points to an agenda by Walker. -end insert-

[mark502inf]

Ha! Mark you are the worst; you are the shocker! The meanest personal comment I've ever read on this forum was yours to Zoran (who's had several different nicks on here). This is the e-mail he sent of your comment from last year, which I never erased. And the cruelest thing is that you were nice to him for a while and acting all interest in his trip and charity work. I notice you are quiet about that. Perhaps you feel guilty.

Re: Srebrenica Casualty Numbers Challenged by Experts as Politicized andEthnically Divisive

From alternatediscourse | 10/01/2003 8:39:26 AM PDT read

On News/Activism 09/29/2003 2:28 PM PDT #269 of 298

...I dated a practicing Muslim woman ... [Mark]: Alternated, the only other person on this thread that said he dated a Muslim women was a guy named PiP PiP Cherrio. I didn't believe him because he had posted his photo and he was the UGLIEST thing you've ever seen! In fact, he was so ugly that the ICTY included his face on its list of crimes against humanity. He was so ugly that the Muslim woman he dated took her veil off and made him wear it.

Oh Joan, don't get your panties all in a twist. First, I do respect and admire PiP PiP's hard work on behalf of the needy children in the Balkans--they need all the help they can get & he's put a lot of time & effort into his project. Second, guys talk to each other a little differently than you might be used to. PiP PiP's a big guy & former Marine--I think he's both taken & received worse than that post & that he most probably took it in exactly the same spirit in which it was given!

I addressed another FReeper in my reply to you--ma bell may be able to get the word to PiP PiP in case he wants to weigh in on this. :-)

[Honorary Serb]

The ronly-bonly new poster, "Paratrooper_501", is even WORSE than the original ronly-bonly (AKA "returnedagainbalkansvet"), because he is an associate of the black-ops artist William Walker, also known as "Mr. Massacre"!!!! Your posts, Destro, once again expose the clinton/Walker LIES about Racak, which is very easy to do!

I agree 100% with the original article. We need to PURGE the Serbophobes, Slavophobes, and Orthodox-phobes out of ALL levels of our government and our military!!!! They only render us impotent against the islamists and the international fascist "Third Way"!!!!

As for those who have posted on this thread complaning about the "Serb apologists" and "fellow travelers" on FR, they may rest assured that I am neither one. Instead, I am a proud honorary Serb!!!!

[MarMema]

ping

[Paratrooper_501]

State always has an agenda. . .

I agree with that and concede to not knowing the agenda of those beyond KDOM. I know what we did and what we reported but I do not know what the State Department did with it.

I hope you will accept my apology.

Thanks. I understand there was a previous poster with quite a reputation. That is undoubtedly who A. Pole and a few others think I am.

I also believe said observers were not fabricating, but simply inexperienced in dealing with bodies left out in the open.

This is correct. None of us were forensic investigators. I was a Soldier, the guy with me was a Foreign Service Officer, and our translator was a teacher from Pristina. Of the OSCE guys a few were Military Officers from various NATO countries and the rest were contractors, mostly former military or police. Our translators were mostly college students or teachers.

I'll start with this question on terrain: My understanding of the massacre site, the infamous "gully" or "wash", is that it was located upland and to the south of the village of Racak.

This is correct. We took GPS coordinates of the bodies so I never paced off a measurement of how far the trench was outside the village. However, it was no more than two or three hundred meters from the nearest houses.

It is also my understanding that the KLA position on the "high ground" above Racak commanded this gully. According to the villagers' accounts in the HRW report, one group of MUP were waiting for the victims at the gully, and another group of MUP herded the victims toward the gully and the waiting MUP who fired downhill into the victims. My question is, would the MUP in and approaching the gully not have been in range of the KLA above? Accounts I have read indicated they were. Can you enlighten me?

The trench was between the village and the gully. It was immediately above and overlooked the south side of the town. It was no more than about 50 meters from the nearest house. The gully was beyond the trench further up the ridge. However, the gully and trench were not within view of each other. Also I believe the KLA was relatively quickly routed from the immediate vicinity. So the Serbs would have controlled the trench before they moved beyond it into the gully.

On the 15th we viewed the events from a hill outside Stimlje about one kilometer east of Racak. Our direct view of the majority of the village was blocked by a closer hill on the north and east of Racak. This was the hill I mentioned earlier that sloped directly down into Stimlje. On this day the Serbs had a supporting position, tanks, AAA, armored cars, and others on that hill firing south. They also had a machinegun position and a tank on the hill I was on. These were logical positions militarily as their fire was oriented on the area between Racak and Petrovo and prevented the KLA from reinforcing north. In addition, the Serbs had a 120mm mortar unit positioned north of Stimlje. Following are grid coordinates of these locations if anyone cares to verify them. I don’t have the grid zone designators available but these coordinates are from a standard US Military 1:100,000 topographic map of the area south of Pristina.

Center of Stimlje: 030978
Center of Racak: 018974
Trench location: 010975
Gully Massacre location: 006975
Serb Battle Position on hill blocking our direct view of Racak: 022972
KDOM/OSCE Observer Location: 035970
Serb Machinegun position: 035971
Serb T-55 position: 039969
Serb 120mm mortar position: 024994

The point to this is that we could not directly see what was happening in Racak on the 15th. We also could not see what was happening on the hills above Racak due to distance, terrain, and vegetation. However, I do remember that early in the afternoon, after a period of relative calm, we heard a short time, around a minute or less, of intense small arms firing from the direction of Racak. I have always speculated that this was when the events in the gully took place.