France cools towards EU project

BBC Paris ^ | Thursday, 28 October, 2004 | Caroline Wyatt

[SunkenCiv]

French politicians have long seen the European Union as an extension of French power, a deeply political project steered mainly from Paris, with Germany as the junior partner. But with the expansion of Europe to 25 members, and Turkish membership under discussion, all that has changed. It has produced deep unease in Paris as to the future direction of Europe, and fed into the heated French debate over the European Constitution... The deputy leader of the French Socialists, Laurent Fabius - also a former French prime minister - has promised to reject the constitution, saying that it is not based on the "social" model the Socialists would like for Europe... French diplomats and politicians fear that the addition of 10 new member states - many of whom look first to Washington or even London rather than to Paris - has diluted not only French influence but even the use of French as an EU language... The debate over Turkey has also fed into French fears of what direction the EU is taking. Turkey would be the first Moslem country to join, one of the poorest and yet by 2015 probably the largest nation in terms of population. At least two-thirds of the French currently oppose Turkish membership and it will take a lot of campaigning to change their minds.

[SunkenCiv]

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[GeronL]

France created that monster.

[LoneSome Journey]

The French remind me of the school yard kid who always wants the games to be played according to his rules. If something happens and he still loses, then he wants to change the rules so he will win. Wait a minute, that also sounds like the Democrats too. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[Newshues]

to offset what they view as the American monster.

The French do not like America being the sole super power, that goes without saying. They are not willing to wait for China to emerge as a super power. The EU was designed from the beginning to counter-balance ( read as counter act ) American policy goals.

Let them be eaten by the beast they made to eat the US.

[mlocher]

EU was designed from the beginning to counter-balance ( read as counter act ) American policy goals.

from an economic standpoint, i agree. from a political standpoint some members of the eu find the united nations a much better avenue to try to acheive their goals

[SunkenCiv]

We'll see more feces before the constitution gets ratified. I'd be surprised to see it fail to pass, but I'd also be surprised to see it pass as-is. I think they need to go back (again) to the negotiating table. France expected it be "bread or the stick", but joining the EU doesn't promise prosperity to anyone, just a surrender of sovereignty.

[GeronL]

It is a suicide pact foe Europe. This might be where the beast comes from.

[Cutterjohnmhb]

Whooops, boy did they step into it...To bad they don't wear cowboy boots. Thery're great for sh**t kickin'. And they've just made themselves a target for the Islamic/fascist. Delaying the Turkey Vote for at least a decade. Tsk Tsk.. It won't be Turkish bombers either. It's a opening Osama might take though, just to teach the infidels a lesson, as well as "recruit" Turkish militants.

[Jackson Brown]

The EU was doomed to fail from it's very inception!

It WILL fail!

[Red6]

The French a ultranationalists.

The Germans are Supranationalists.

They both cling to the EU for very different reasons. They both will eventually part for very different reasons.

Red6

[SunkenCiv]

Yeah, I quite agree. This isn't anything new, though. I blame the EU for kowtowing to Greek demands (which are ridiculous) for complete control of Cyprus (anschluss), which is what has delayed Turkish entry for the past 40+ years. The EU's antics helped produce the Islamic majority in Turkish gov't (and the pre-EU kowtowing led to the situation on Cyprus as it stands today). OTOH, I don't think the current Turkish gov't is going to last much longer (not an overthrow, just parliamentary instability, a la postwar Italy), but even if that happens, there's no way to go but down. The French in particular don't like Moslems, don't trust those in their midst, and don't dare bring Turkey into the EU. They should work on the former Yugoslav republics first.

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[SunkenCiv]

The EU was doomed to fail from it's very inception! It WILL fail!

I don't think it's a pass-fail situation. The EU will remain a big mess though. It's not so easy to give up sovereignty, eh Frenchies? The French, Germans, and British were perfectly happy to join a confederation as long as they were calling the shots. They'd have had more success if they'd built something like the UN Security Council, but independent of the UN.

The opportunity for the US is in non-EU countries, both in and out of Europe. The US has to continue to help liberate the world's people and create in-house buffers against Islam, including secular school systems.

The French [are] ultranationalists. The Germans are Supranationalists. They both cling to the EU for very different reasons. They both will eventually part for very different reasons.

The main reason Europe banded together was economic, and that was a good idea. It became an even better idea after Reagan destroyed the USSR and Europe was no longer divided east-west. The Europarliament has been around for a long while, but functioned more as a bureaucratic sinkhole rather than either a coherent, cooperative body or a transitional form where full unity could be discussed.

I do agree though... France and Germany had different reasons in part. The EU will deteriorate once the various member nations, now small in size, demand equal say in "gov't" policies. I'd expect France, Germany, and Britain to build alliances within the EU. And of course, the US will have some influence over the newer, smaller members states.

[Cutterjohnmhb]

Gaaa if they become as unstable in their Parliament as Italy was at post war.With governments changing faster than a frenchman cheating on his wife./grin
They're in trouble, and thats a shame if so. Turkey has been a bulwark of moderation compared to ANY Muslim nation in that part of the world. I've never been enamored with their Justice system, though it's improving to satisfy EU, as well I think a natural maturation and growth of the country. An unstable Turkey would have profound affects from Central Asia to N. Africa. I never liked this EU. 1 Government business anyways... I thought at best any EU should be a trade and transport development agency. If memory serves me ,while I was there many years ago, watching and listening to the bear. That was the origins, a benign transport border and trade agency and laws to springboard consolidation and co-operation between European nations to foster greater trade and travel. Whatever the origin, The French ruined that by creating a runaway HUGE bureaucracy accountable to, no one really, except some other qusi-government agency. With Germany the 2 socialist countries, dream up an insatiable beast with no moral purpose other than to grab more power.It's such a mess and with no silver lining and pessimism growing. I firmly believe there will be another war in Europe in my lifetime and again sadly my son's

[SunkenCiv]

I agree, Europe will experience war again. But I believe it will be urban guerrila warfare, such as Israel has experienced for years now (and more recently, Iraq). Here's an old file:

MEPs refuse to leave the Brussels 'gravy train'
By Stephen Castle in Brussels
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=358935

[would post it, but it's on the "do not excerpt" list]

[Cutterjohnmhb]

If your right and it deteriorates into an urban warfare like scenario. I remember the 70' 80's terror organizations like the Red Brigade and the Baader-Meinhof Gang who's assault on the governments were meant to bring them down. But these Islamic/Fascist are so much more dangerous.Would anyone doubt they'd release anthrax or another agent onto the cities of Europe?. Genocide may revisit Europe again if events spin out of control.
My worry is the events will eventually mimic Bosnia-Herzegovina, where parts of the Europe and Central Asia and possibly Turkey, breakup into religious alliances. My hope is the EU quits appeasing these fascist in their midst France and many others do. Before an intolerable event happens and reprisals on a grand scale take place.....Thx

[SunkenCiv]

French nutritionists give Big Mac seal of approval
New Zealand Herald ^ | 04.03.2004
Posted on 03/03/2004 10:06:37 AM PST by presidio9
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1089920/posts

[A CA Guy]

This house of cards shall come down.

[SunkenCiv]

may be a dead link, the SNL lampoon of France:
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~katz/SLCN/movies/snlfrance.mpg

[SunkenCiv]

Not a ping, just a one time thing, a reply to those who posted here. An update...

Imagine this -- people get to go vote for or against the surrender of national sovereignty to a body that has been shown to be corrupt and unworkable. And one of the jackasses who draws his salary from said body calls those who will vote no "biased". I would say "only in Europe", but all single-party state advocates everywhere, regardless of political system, do the same thing.

French could vote against the Constitution
by Marit Ruuda
March 18 2005

For the first time a poll has shown that a majority of French people are likely to vote against the European Constitution. The new poll, conducted this week by the CSA Institute, has found that 51 per cent of those questioned are planning to vote against the Constitution and 49 per cent will vote 'yes', reports today's Le Parisien. According to this poll, as much as 53 per cent of French voters are likely to abstain during the referendum, taking place on 29 May... Mr Barroso has accused French politicians of spreading euroscepticism ahead of the referendum... His accusations, however, came after Mr Chirac has repeatedly said that the EU's proposed services directive - aimed at opening the market in services - is unacceptable and needs to be completely re-examined.

Bolkestein denounces French protest against services directive
by Elitsa Vucheva
March 21 2005

Former EU Commissioner Frits Bolkestein has said French protesters against the EU's proposed services directive are "short-sighted" as they were using it "for party political reasons" and as a pretext to protest against "the French rightwing government. Linking the services directive so clearly to my name points to certain xenophobic feelings", he is reported as saying by Le Figaro. "It is only in France that they are consciously stressing the Germanic feel of my name", he added... The services directive, which is also widely known as the Bolkestein directive, aims at liberalising the market in services by allowing companies to provide services under the rules of their home country... Some 60,000 people were gathered in Brussels on Saturday to protest against the directive, following an initiative by European Trade Union Confederation... [Some] fear that the rising no vote is due to fears about the effects of the services directive.

[SunkenCiv]

...and the walls come-a tumblin' down...

Second poll indicates turn towards 'no' vote in France
21.03.2005 - 09:13 CET | By Richard Carter
http://www.euobserver.com/?aid=18706&print=1

Should come as no surprise though... the French wanted their own nuclear weapons, under their own control... resisted int'l treaty participation... uses its seat on the UNSC to resist UN mandates, etc etc...