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No Ladies’ Man (John Kerry has a lame pick-up line)
National Review Online ^ | October 14, 2004 | Carrie Lukas

Posted on 10/14/2004 9:34:14 AM PDT by No Surrender Monkey

Desperate men often resort to clichéd lines when trying to snare women. Senator John Kerry must be desperate, because he dragged out the tired, misleading statistic about the so-called wage gap during last night's debate; namely, that women only earn 76 cents for each man's dollar.

This factoid comes from Department of Labor data on the average wage of a full-time working woman and the average wage of a full-time working man. And, yes, if you look at those numbers you will find that the average woman earns about three quarters of the income of the average man.

But that statistic ignores many relevant factors that affect a worker's take-home pay. For starters, it doesn't adjust for number of years worked. On average, women spend about a decade out of the workforce to care for their families. It should come as no surprise to Senator Kerry that a 35-year-old woman reentering the workforce after ten years off earns less than a man or woman who worked continuously during that time.

The wage-gap statistic also fails to consider educational attainment. Today, women earn more than half of all bachelor's and master's degrees, but it wasn't always that way. Older women in the workforce tend to have less education than their male peers, which affected their career path, their salaries, and ultimately Department of Labor data.

Women and men also often have different priorities when assessing employment opportunities. One survey of working women found that for nearly three quarters a flexible schedule was "very important" when considering a job. This means that many women are willing to trade more money for more flexibility or time off.

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: gwb2004; kerry; thirddebate; wagegap; womensvote
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To: LibertarianInExile

Date: August 24, 2003
Contact: David Partenheimer
Public Affairs Office
(202) 336-5706





THE WAGE GAP FAVORING MEN DOESN’T JUST HURT WOMEN’S PAY, ACCORDING TO NEW RESEARCH
Pay of Both Men and Women Managers is Less When Managers’ Subordinates, Peers and Supervisors are Women, Study Finds





WASHINGTON — A new study on managerial pay involving more than 2,000 managers from more than 500 organizations finds that not only do women managers earn approximately nine percent less than male managers, but that pay of both men and women managers is also related to the gender and age of those they work with. The study finds that managerial pay is lower when the manager’s referent group (subordinates, peers or supervisors) is largely female, when subordinates are outside the prime age group, and when peers and supervisors are younger. The findings are published in the August issue of the American Psychological Association’s (APA) Journal of Applied Psychology.

“Beyond the general wage gap between men and women, the findings suggest that salaries for both male and female managers are less when they supervise, work with, or are supervised by females,” according to study authors Cheri Ostroff, Ph.D., of Teachers College, Columbia University and Leanne E. Atwater, Ph.D., of Arizona State University West. “For example, male or female managers whose subordinate group is largely women suffer significantly in compensation levels compared to managers who supervise a majority of men. Similarly, a manager who supervises predominately older workers also receives less pay than one who supervises workers predominately around the age of 40,” say the researchers.

The study sample included data from 2,178 managers from 512 different companies across a wide variety of industries and functional areas. The manager’s sex, age, race, organizational level, experience, education, performance and functional area (e.g., sales, engineering, operations, marketing, human resources) were taken into account prior to examining the effect of the gender and age composition of managers’ referent groups.

Specific findings regarding gender and pay indicate that:

Managerial pay becomes substantially lower as the percentage of females that the manager supervises increases. For example, on average, a male or female manager whose subordinate group is comprised of 80% female receives approximately $7,000 less in pay than a manager whose subordinate group is 80% male.
Managerial pay remains relatively constant when the percentage of females that the manager supervises is less than 50%. However, once females become the majority in the workgroup, both male and female managers pay decreases sharply as the percentage of female subordinates in the workgroup increases. For example, a manager who supervises a group comprised of all women receives approximately $9,000 less than one who supervises a group comprised of 50% women.
On average, managerial pay decreases by approximately $500 for each 10% increase in the percentage of his or her female peers.
On average, a manager whose supervisor is female receives approximately $2,000 less pay than one whose supervisor is male.

Specific findings regarding age and pay indicate that:

As the average age of a manager’s subordinates become younger or older than 40, the manager’s pay becomes lower. For example, a manager who supervises employees aged 30 on average receives approximately $4,000 less pay than a manager whose employees are around age 40; a manager who supervises a group of 50 year old employees on average receives approximately $4,000 less pay than a manager whose subordinates are around age 40.
Managers whose peer group is younger than age 40 on average receive lower pay than managers whose peer group is over 40.
Managers whose supervisor is younger than 40 receive lower pay than managers whose supervisor is over 40.

“One explanation for the negative affect on a manager’s pay based on the gender of their subordinates, peers and supervisors is that women are perceived as less valuable in the workplace, due to the presumption – true or not – that women are more likely to be absent more often than men, take maternity leave, acquire less training and skills due to family responsibility and be less committed to their work and jobs,” said the authors. “Women may also receive less authority and power in their positions than men, thereby receiving fewer of the resources they need to contribute in more substantial and valued ways in the organizations. And women managers are more likely than male managers to work with and supervise other women, hence reducing their compensation even further,” added the researchers.

Similar results were observed with respect to the ages of a manager’s subordinates. Managers with subordinates outside the prime age group (i.e., younger or older than 40) received lower pay and the perceived value of workers is also a likely explanation for this trend, according to the study. “Younger workers are likely to be viewed as less valuable due to lesser experience or firm specific skills, hence those who supervise them are also likely to be seen as having lesser value,” according to Drs. Ostroff and Atwater. “Older workers are likely to be perceived as contributing less – deserved or not – due to negative stereotypes about their competence and motivation.”

Top managers should investigate the extent to which this type of discrimination is occurring in their organizations, according to the authors, and take steps to understand the reasons for it and to correct the disparities.


Article: “Does Whom You Work With Matter? Effects of Referent Group Gender and Age Composition on Managers’ Compensation," Cheri Ostroff, Teachers College, Columbia University and Leanne E. Atwater, Arizona State University West; Journal of Applied Psychology, Vol. 88, No. 4.

Full text of the article is available from the APA Public Affairs Office or at http://www.apa.org/journals/apl/press_releases/august_2003/apl884725.html

Reporters: Study authors Cheri Ostroff, Ph.D., and Leanne Atwater, Ph.D., are available for media interviews. Dr. Ostroff can be reached at (212) 678-3336 or by Email and Dr. Atwater can be reached at (602) 404-0987 or by Email.


The American Psychological Association (APA), in Washington, DC, is the largest scientific and professional organization representing psychology in the United States and is the world’s largest association of psychologists. APA’s membership includes more than 150,000 researchers, educators, clinicians, consultants and students. Through its divisions in 53 subfields of psychology and affiliations with 60 state, territorial and Canadian provincial associations, APA works to advance psychology as a science, as a profession and as a means of promoting health, education and human welfare.


261 posted on 10/29/2004 9:24:55 AM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: BushisTheMan
Women are paid less than men for performing the SAME job.

Simply not true. The "same job" doesn't even exist in anything beyond burger flipper. I have 25 years experience in my field. Someone with 15 years experience in the "same job" gets paid significantly less that I.

That is the point of the article if you acrually READ it.

262 posted on 10/29/2004 9:27:45 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (The cool points are out the window and you got me all twisted up in the game)
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To: LibertarianInExile

Wages and Income

Forty-eight percent of working women provide half or more of their family’s income.[25]
Half of all married women with school-age children provide half or more of their household’s income.[26]
Sixty-three percent of workers, in 2002, at or below the minimum wage were women.[27]
The Wage Gap
Between the mid-1980s and 1993, men’s earnings were dropping as women’s earnings were increasing, narrowing the historic wage gap between them. After 1993, however, men’s earnings began to recover and the wage gap began to widen again.

Over a lifetime of work, the average 25-year-old woman who works full-time, year-round until she retires at age 65 will earn $523,000 less than the average working man.[28]
At the current rate of change, working women will not achieve equal pay until after the year 2050.[29]

The wage ratio of women’s to men’s median weekly earnings in 2002 was 77 cents for every dollar a man earned
[30] In 1976, the ratio was 62 cents to every dollar a man earned.[31]

For women between the ages of 25 and 29, the wage gap was the narrowest at 84.7 percent in 2000. The wage gap increases among older workers.

For women between the ages of 35–39, the wage gap is 71.9 percent, and for women between 45–49, it is 73.9 percent.[32]

http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/women/factsaboutworkingwomen.cfm


263 posted on 10/29/2004 9:32:11 AM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: Xenalyte

http://stats.bls.gov/cps/cpswom2003.pdf

Highlights of Women’s Earnings in 2003
U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics
September 2004

Median weekly earnings for women who were fulltime
wage and salary workers were $552 in 2003.

This amount equaled 80 percent of men’s $695
weekly median, up from 78 percent in 2002. In 1979, the first year of comparable earnings data, women earned 63 percent as much as men. (See chart 1.)

The women’s-to-men’s earnings ratio varied significantly
by demographic group.

The ratio was about 88 percent for
both blacks and Hispanics or Latinos in 2003;

for whites it was 79 percent; and for Asians it was 78 percent.

Young women (16 to 24 years old) earned almost as much as young men, while women aged 35 years and older earned about
three-fourths as much as their male peers.

. . .

Between 1979 and 2003, the earnings gap between
women and men narrowed for most major age groups. The
women’s-to-men’s earnings ratio among 35- to 44-year-olds,
for example, was 76 percent in 2003 compared with 58 percent

in 1979, and that for 45- to 54-year-olds was 73 percent in
2003 compared with 57 percent in 1979. The earnings ratios
for teenagers and for workers aged 65 and older, however,
showed no consistent movement over the period. (See table
12.)

Median weekly earnings for women who were fulltime
wage and salary workers were $552 in 2003.
This amount equaled 80 percent of men’s $695
weekly median, up from 78 percent in 2002. In 1979, the first year of comparable earnings data, women earned 63 percent as much as men. (See chart 1.)

The women’s-to-men’s earnings ratio varied significantly
by demographic group. The ratio was about 88 percent for
both blacks and Hispanics or Latinos in 2003; for whites it
was 79 percent; and for Asians it was 78 percent. Young
women (16 to 24 years old) earned almost as much as young
men, while women aged 35 years and older earned about
three-fourths as much as their male peers.


264 posted on 10/29/2004 9:43:06 AM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: freedumb2003

Well duh...

I think you need to read more.


265 posted on 10/29/2004 9:46:25 AM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: BushisTheMan; LibertarianInExile; Polybius

Raw data, unadjusted for maternity and other factors, of course, which undermines your point.


266 posted on 10/29/2004 9:58:20 AM PDT by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: Xenalyte

So what you are saying is that you won't believe anything if it disagrees with your bias?


267 posted on 10/29/2004 10:16:56 AM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: BushisTheMan
No, I am saying that I disagree with conclusions dishonestly come by. Adjusting for real-world factors, such as motherhood, is necessary to comparison.

I give up on you. You're a prime example of why men think women are incapable of reason.
268 posted on 10/29/2004 10:57:20 AM PDT by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: Xenalyte

I guess you missed all the other posts that dispute the argument you just tried to make?

Many of them do compare just exactly what you are trying to use as an argument.

Women are their own worse enemy.


269 posted on 10/29/2004 11:16:19 AM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: BushisTheMan

"Worst," not "worse." Men don't respect women who can't spell, either.


270 posted on 10/29/2004 11:17:06 AM PDT by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: BushisTheMan
One more time, and I will use short words in hopes that you get it.

Without us knowing EXACTLY HOW the numbers were arrived at, we have no way to judge whether they are accurate.

Therefore, they are suspect.

That they support your argument does not make them a) valid or b) true.

I'm not saying they are false . . . I am saying that without underlying methodology, they are suspect and worthless. They could be perfectly correct, but without methodology, they are worthless.

Now if you'll excuse me, I must go deal with grown-ups.
271 posted on 10/29/2004 11:19:44 AM PDT by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: Xenalyte

Well, I think you are spinning. You are dissing a government statistical report as nonsense because it disagrees with your biased concept.

And you infer YOU are the grownup?


272 posted on 10/29/2004 12:10:53 PM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: Xenalyte

Face it, these particular men don't respect any women, even you sweetheart. You fell into their trap.


273 posted on 10/29/2004 12:12:07 PM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: Xenalyte

such as motherhood, is necessary to comparison.

From your post 268, grammer queen.


274 posted on 10/29/2004 12:13:25 PM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: BushisTheMan
Grammar, not grammer.

"Adjusting" is the subject that goes with the verb "is". You remind me of my old students who never could understand that the verb refers to the subject of the sentence, not the noun closest to the verb.

Believe you me, you do NOT want to get into a grammar war with me. You will be sorely outclassed.
275 posted on 10/29/2004 1:03:09 PM PDT by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: BushisTheMan
No, for the last time, I am NOT spinning. I am telling you that ANY study - mine, yours, ANY STUDY IN THE WORLD - is worthless as an indicator if you are uncertain how the data is compiled.

Since you refuse to realize that, I shall waste no more time with you. I shall merely feel very sorry for your employees.
276 posted on 10/29/2004 1:04:12 PM PDT by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: BushisTheMan; LibertarianInExile; Polybius

Hey, y'all wanna come over here and tell BitM how much you respect me? It IS "the morning," after all. Somewhere.


277 posted on 10/29/2004 1:04:53 PM PDT by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: Xenalyte

So, you have to shout to make a point? My my


278 posted on 10/29/2004 1:57:02 PM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: Xenalyte

3 against one is ???? fun.


279 posted on 10/29/2004 1:57:30 PM PDT by BushisTheMan
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To: Xenalyte

Just fill in the blank to fit yourself.

3 against one is cowards fun.
3 against one is losers fun.
3 against one is I can't win otherwise fun.


280 posted on 10/29/2004 2:00:11 PM PDT by BushisTheMan
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