Skip to comments.October Surprise? Be Careful!
Posted on 10/13/2004 6:31:04 AM PDT by CatoRenasci
Is the Kerry Discharge Question a Red Herring?
On another thread there is a long discussion of the New York Sun story about the Kerry 1978 discharge from the Navy by Thomas Lipscomb.
Reviewing the US Code Sections, I am concerned this may be a non-issue story. Before we make a big deal of it we must eliminate an important possible explanation:
The US Code Sections cited, 10 USC 1162 and 1163 are no longer in effect, having been repealed in 1994. The replacement sections are 10 USC 12681-12683. The relevant section is 12683, which provides in relevant part:
(a) An officer of a reserve component who has at least five years of service as a commissioned officer may not be separated from that component without his consent except -
(1) under an approved recommendation of a board of officers convened by an authority designated by the Secretary concerned; or
(2) by the approved sentence of a court-martial.
Under 10 USC 14513, an officer who is not selected for promotion may be (among other things) discharged from his appointment:
Section 14513. Failure of selection for promotion: transfer, retirement, or discharge
Each reserve officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps who is in an active status and whose removal from an active status or from a reserve active-status list is required by section 14504, 14505, or 14506 [NB - failure of promotion] of this title shall (unless the officer's separation is deferred or the officer is continued in an active status under another provision of law) not later than the date specified in those sections -
(1) be transferred to an inactive status if the Secretary concerned determines that the officer has skills which may be required to meet the mobilization needs of the officer's armed force;
(2) be transferred to the Retired Reserve if the officer is qualified for such transfer and does not request (in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary concerned) not to be transferred to the Retired Reserve; or
(3) if the officer is not transferred to an inactive status or to the Retired Reserve, be discharged from the officer's reserve appointment.
And, under 10 USC 14516, that separation would be involuntary:
Section 14516. Separation to be considered involuntary
The separation of an officer pursuant to section 14513, 14514, or 14515 of this title shall be considered to be an involuntary separation for purposes of any other provision of law.
Thus, it is quite possible that Kerry simply did nothing with respect to his reserve obligations and, after several years, finally came up before a promotion board from Lieutenant JG to full Lieutenant in the reserves for the second time, and (having done nothing) was found not qualified for promotion. As a result, as shown above, he could be separated from the service involuntarily. This separation would not result in a less than honorable discharge.
People, be very carefule with this one, it could be a sucker punch by the sKerry people to take the wind out of all of the Kerry military stories!!!
Thanks for sharing.
Nothing to fear....the Swifties are personally responsible for this one.
Although, I hope it is....
It is for Kerry and his campaign to explain, not us. He can clear it all up by signing 180 and answering some questions on the subject. If he has nothing to hide it shouldn't be a problem!
What did the US Code Sections cited, 10 USC 1162 and 1163 state? They were in effect at the time of his reported discharge. The wording of those regulations could be important.
I saw that thread and the swifties page. My concern is that I did not see them consider or eliminate the possiblity I described.
I see the point however, why the secrecy ... If it comes out after the election.... and it is bad it may very well cause a call for impeachment.
They were in effect when he was discharged, so your point is moot.
"It is for Kerry and his campaign to explain, not us. He can clear it all up by signing 180 and answering some questions on the subject. If he has nothing to hide it shouldn't be a problem!"
Kerry won't expose his records. If he had nothing to hide, and had a record that was honorable, HE WOULD HAVE PUT IT ON EVERY BILLBOARD IN AMERICA. Not so. The silence is deafening...there is something there, but we won't see it, barring a miracle.
No, he's right. The replacement sections now in effect replaced the language in older sections. The reference we're using may be wrong. I'd say this is grounds for caution.
I agree that Kerry is a dishonorable person.
But I'm not too sure that the voters will care about that, considering Clinton's 2 terms, even given that they were less than enthusiastic about him.
Hope I'm wrong, though.
I don't have the repealed sections on line, but I'd be willing to bet that the substance is pretty much the same. I know that the procedure of involuntary separation of reserve officers who did not get promoted was in effect in the '70s and '80s because I knew people who were so discharged: They did their 2-3 years active duy, were transferred to the IRR, never were called for drill, were transferred to the inactive or standby reserve for a few years, and then after a few more years (more than the 6-8 since commissioning) received an involuntary sep letter and an honorable discharge.
My wife was telling me that she heard some retired Navy officer on the tube talking about this and that Kerry had received a General Discharge from the Navy.
The other thing to keep in mind is that there are plenty of people inside Bush/Cheney who know the truth. They will throw lots of cold water on it quickly if it is a dead end.
Karl Rove has been tracking Kerry since 1984. There isn't a thing he doesn't know about him.
I'm not suggesting this is how Kerry was involuntarily separated, only that it is an honorable possiblity that must be eliminated before anyone makes a big deal of his discharge!
FWIW, from another thread.
Here's 10 U.S.C.S. 1162 and 1163.. Both have since been repealed in
1994. Note 1163.
§ 1162. Reserves; discharge
(a) Subject to other provisions of this title [10 USCS §§ 101 et
seq.], reserve commissioned officers may be discharged at the pleasure
of the President. Other Reserves may be discharged under regulations
prescribed by the Secretary concerned.
(b) Under regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary of Defense, a
Reserve who becomes a regular or ordained minister of religion is
entitled upon his request to a discharge from his reserve enlistment
10 USCS § 1163 (1992)
§ 1163. Reserve components: members; limitations on separation
(a) An officer of a reserve component who has at least three years of
service as a commissioned officer may not be separated from that
component without his consent except under an approved recommendation
of a board of officers convened by an authority designated by the
Secretary concerned, or by the approved sentence of a court-martial.
This subsection does not apply to a separation under subsection (b) of
this section or under section 1003 of this title [10 USCS § 1003], to
a dismissal under section 1161 (a) of this title [10 USCS § 1161(a)],
or to a transfer under section 3352 or 8352 of this title [10 USCS §
3352 or 8352].
(b) The President or the Secretary concerned may drop from the rolls
of the armed force concerned any Reserve (1) who has been absent
without authority for at least three months, or (2) who is sentenced
to confinement in a Federal or State penitentiary or correctional
institution after having been found guilty of an offense by a court
other than a court-martial or other military court, and whose sentence
has become final.
(c) A member of a reserve component who is separated therefrom for
cause, except under subsection (b), is entitled to a discharge under
honorable conditions unless--
(1) he is discharged under conditions other than honorable under an
approved sentence of a court-martial or under the approved findings of
a board of officers convened by an authority designated by the
Secretary concerned; or
(2) he consents to a discharge under conditions other than honorable
with a waiver of proceedings of a court-martial or a board.
(d) Under regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary concerned,
which shall be as uniform as practicable, a member of a reserve
component who is on active duty (other than for training) and is
within two years of becoming eligible for retired pay or retainer pay
under a purely military retirement system, may not be involuntarily
released from that duty before he becomes eligible for that pay,
unless his release is approved by the Secretary.
456 posted on 10/13/2004 2:05:10 AM PDT by GAGOPSWEEPTOVICTORY
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