Keeping Score: A round-by-round look at how Bush and Kerry did during the debate.

HOW DID Bush and Kerry do tonight? A mixed bag for both. Let's look at the scorecard.

Round 1: How will Kerry make America safer? Kerry says he'll use alliances and won't upset Muslims around the world. Bush stumbles before giving the numbers of al Qaeda killed and captured. Round to Kerry

Round 2: Will Kerry's election increase the chances of a terror attack? Showing the certitude that makes thinking people cringe, Bush replies, "That's not going to happen" because he's going to win. "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work," he says. Kerry calls Iraq a "colossal error in judgment." Round to Bush

Round 3: What misjudgments has Bush made? "Where do we start?" Kerry asks. Let the record note that he mentions Vietnam ("as someone who's been in combat") at 9:12 p.m. Unfortunately, he then spins off into talk about multiples of ten. It probably isn't numerology, but who can tell. Bush quotes Kerry's old stance on Saddam. Looking peevish, Bush says "That's part of a pre-September 10th mentality" and gestures to Kerry. A good line of attack he should have pressed more. I mean, wasn't that the theme of the Republican convention? Round to Bush

Round 4: What about going after Saddam and not bin Laden? Bush says, sensibly, "We have to be able to do both." Kerry flops around about the "rush to war" and how Bush didn't fund body armor. Round to Bush

Round 5: What would Kerry do differently on Homeland Security? Kerry attacks Bush's funding of firehouses and the tax cuts, which is weak.

But Bush flounders, muttering something like, "Pssshhht" and shrugging his shoulders. In his rebuttal, he nearly shouts that you better have a president who understands that you have to protect America. Round to Kerry

Round 6: What criteria will you use for knowing when to bring troops home from Iraq? Bush says, "When our generals on the ground" tell us that Iraqis are ready to protect themselves "from these terrorists." Kerry says, "Help is on the way." ("I know what it's like to go out on" missions where you don't know what's around the corner--second Vietnam reference.) During rebuttal, Bush hits Kerry's $87 billion vote for the first, and inexplicably the only, time. Round to Kerry

Round 7: Are Americans now dying for a mistake? After saying he agrees with Bush, Kerry says Iraq is like FDR invading Mexico after Pearl Harbor. Then again with the summits. And then Halliburton. Welcome to the MoveOn.org portion of the program. An increasingly surly Bush responds, "That's just absurd. . . . What does he say to Tony Blair. . . . You can't expect to build alliances when you denigrate the contributions of those who are serving side-by-side with Americans in Iraq." Ouch. Round to Bush

Round 8: What was Bush's miscalculation on post-war conditions in Iraq? Bush says, basically, that the Baathists were cowards and didn't fight and, also, Tommy Franks won too fast. Also: "I know we won't [win in Iraq] if we send mixed signals." Kerry makes news by saying that now he would not have gone into Iraq knowing what he knows now. Or maybe this isn't news. To be honest, I've lost track. Anyway. Round to Kerry

Round 9: How has Bush lied on Iraq? Kerry says that he's "never used the harshest word which you just have." Hmmm . . . can that be true? Someone should look into it, since this isn't the type of thing the RNC would send out a press release about. Bush's rebuttal is a non sequitur: Osama bin Laden doesn't get to decide how America defends itself. Huh? Bush seems personally offended at the suggestion that anyone else might get to do his job. And for the fourth time or so, says, "That's not how a commander in chief acts." Kerry is going to win this round, but he makes one gigantic mistake: "I've had one position, one consistent position," on Iraq, he says. Oops, that should go in an ad. Round to Kerry

Round 10: Has the war in Iraq been worth the cost in lives? Bush's finest moment so far. He names a woman he met whose husband died in Iraq and talks about how they prayed together. "I thought her husband's sacrifice was noble and worthy. Because I understand the stakes of this war on terror," he says. "Every life is precious, that's what distinguishes us from the enemy," he says. If only he could have brought himself to name "the enemy" he keeps referencing.

Kerry's rebuttal is, "I understand what the president is talking about because I know what it means to lose people in combat," and, that "reminds me of my own thinking when I came back from fighting in that war." If you're keeping score at home, this is the fourth time he's brought up Vietnam.

Bush starts his rebuttal by laughing out loud and then coming to tonight's lodestar: "You cannot lead the war on terror if you keep changing positions" again. Kerry's rebuttal uses Colin Powell as a club on Bush and then starts talking about the Pottery Barn Rule. They teach it at SAIS, you know. That and the little known Crate and Barrel Corollary. Round to Bush

Round 11: Give us specifics for how you would end U.S. involvement in Iraq. Kerry talks about 14 military bases in Iraq and guarding the Oil Ministry and we're off to MoveOn land again. we're building 14 bases and guarding the oil ministry only, a sop to the MoveOn types. Says you have to close the borders and bring in allies. Round to Bush

Round 12: Is it now more or less likely that you'll go into a preemptive war again? Bush says, "by speaking clearly and doing what we say and not sending mixed messages" it is less likely we'll have to use troops again. Kerry rebuts that "the enemy" was Osama, not Saddam, and that Bush should have used U.S. troops, not Afghan troops, at Tora Bora. See? Bush should be using multinational troops where he's using American troops and American troops where he was using foreign allies. That makes sense. Round to Bush

Round 13: What is your view on preemptive war? Kerry says the POTUS always has that option and then, amazingly brings up JFK's consultation with the French during the Cuban missile crisis. That is, as the saying goes, a big matzah ball hanging out there.

Shockingly, Bush passes up the opportunity. His rebuttal is, however, devastating. He says he doesn't know what it means to "pass a global test. . . . My attitude is you take preemptive action in order to protect the American people." That's a standing 8-count. Round to Bush

Round 14: Can diplomacy solve the problems in Iran and North Korea? President Bush wants to work with the Moo-lahs to convince Iran to abandon their nuclear ambitions. Kerry beats Bush over the head with Powell again. This is Kerry's best moment, until Jim Lehrer steps in. Lehrer wants to clarify what type of negotiations the two candidates favor. Bush wants bilateral. Kerry says, naturally, "I want both!" Round to Kerry

Round 15: Darfur--why won't you send in troops? Kerry mentions the "back-door draft" and says we're too overextended in Iraq to do Darfur. Bush, interestingly enough, knows about the timing of the African rainy seasons. Round to Kerry

Round 16: Are there underlying character issues serious enough to deny Kerry the job? For looking like such a sourpuss all night, Bush is limber and charming here: "Whew, that's a loaded question," he smiles. He admires Kerry's service and appreciates that he's a great dad and that his daughters have been so kind to the Bush girls. He admires Kerry's service in the Senate, but not his record. "He changes positions on the war in Iraq" and on things "in his core" "in his heart of hearts" and, even worse, sends "mixed messages." Kerry makes the fair point that "It's one thing to be certain, but you can be certain and wrong." Round to Bush

Round 17: What do you think is the single biggest threat facing America? Kerry doesn't hesitate: "Nuclear proliferation." Round to Kerry

Round 18: Did Bush misjudge Vladimir Putin? President Bush thinks that it's important to have good personal relationships with former KGB agents as they try to roll back important civil freedoms. This way you can disagree constructively. Kerry doesn't have a better answer, but did get a neat-o tour of KGB headquarters right after the fall of the Soviet Union. Round to Kerry

I've got this fight scored dead-even: 9 to 9. Of course there are intangibles to consider. On the whole, Kerry was more relaxed and polished and certainly calmer. He also managed to sneak in a fifth Vietnam reference during his closing remarks ("I defended this country as a young man in war.") Kerry was a grounded presence and his performance should give Democrats hope.

Bush was, as someone once put it, surprisingly more tart than sweet. At times the president faltered and you could see the wheels spinning as he flipped through his mental Rolodex, looking for the right card. Peevish is the word which kept coming to mind. He was, however, ruthlessly on-message. If Kerry really is being damaged by the sense that he's a flip-flopper who doesn't know his own mind--and the higher-ups on Team Bush insist that this is the key to beating him--then the president did exactly what he wanted to do. But if the central issue of this election is the September 10 versus the September 12 party, then Bush may have let slip a fair opportunity.

I agree with you 100%. In addition, I do believe that we are part of the post-election "spin" and we are blowing it bigtime. I was looking forward to getting on here because I though he did so well and I was shocked to see such defeatism.

I think that GW needed to be more agressive toward Kerry.

Actually, I was very pleased that Bush hammered Kerry on not being CIC-material because of his demeaning of our allies, and his "wrong war" stuff. I was driving home for the first hour of the debate. Just listening to it on the radio, I analyzed substance more, and thought that Bush had two or three brilliant answers (turning Bush "deceiving" around on Kerry who said all the same things yet "not deceiving"--also, the touching story of P.J. and comforting Millie and their son.)

I think that Bush stayed on message tonight--maybe too much at times. But I think he struck the right tone in being a little peeved at Kerry's lies, and Kerry's offending our allies and our soldiers. They say that Bush wasn't as likeable tonight, but Kerry didn't come across as more likeable, as some of tonight's polls show.

Republicans are so quick to freak out. He did not lose and the sheep mentality of "other people think he lost so he must have" is not a substitute for good analysis.

He repeated himself as he always has in debates. It is his technique and he does this becaus it works for him. It is called "staying on message", exactly what the Dems talked about disrupting. It didn't work.

It's not defeatism. Kerry is just soooo ripe how Bush could have seemed unprepared is beyond me. I just hope he's dealing with more important issues and just does not have the time "I don't think bilateral talks with North Korea will work" indeed... Bush should never speak as though Kerry has a rat's chance of being POTUS. "North Korea has lied to us in the past, why would bilateral talks with them, or for that matter Iran be any different". It should be implicitly "you're an out of touch idiot, John" not, "I don't think that'll work". We can see he's above this. Why can't he?

"Even if he in lying in wait for the other debates, he has NO business being uncertain of himself in front of the nation. He should be above all this, and instead sounded like he was disconnnected and couldn't express himself."

The whole world was watching, we are at war and you think you saw a man disconnected. I saw a man who thought about every word he said and yes there were times he had the look of incredulity on his face, but he did not buy into the snake's pit of lies, distortions, and deception.

There was not enough time to respond to all the lies and distortions spewed out of JFKerry arrogant mouth.

omstrat: but the general TV folk out there who dont read a lot and dont have the political savy we may have on this blog site may not see it all that way .

Howlin: Perhaps you better leave this thread and read some of the polls and articles being posted before you keep saying Bush looked so bad.

I haven't read any other articles or polls yet,
but what stands out to me is that many
voters who aren't as informed or articulate
as we freepers, will be extremely impressed
by Bush's cool lack of reacting.
He's proven that what you see is what you get.

We can't underestimate the power of sincerity.
I think it's brilliant that Bush did not treat Kerry like the enemy.

The latest line on the Iwoa Electronic Market Numbers indicate a debate win for GW"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1232235/posts

Latest IEM Electronic Market Numbers In (Bush Reverses Pre-Debate Decline, wins "Debate Day"
Iowa Electronic Market ^ | September 30th, 2004 | Remember_Salamis

Posted on 09/30/2004 10:32:18 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1232235/posts

Like I said, Kerry lied repeatedly. I think the Reagan "now there you go again" would have worked well. Kerry misrepresents facts. I know it, you know it, and his coaching team knows it. He should have been well prepared for the JFKBS.

The debates style was to pressure President Bush to defend his policies while leaving Kerry's decades long policies of shame unexposed and off limits.

My niece, who is NOT political, called in the middle of the debate to ask me if Kerry had ANY ideas that didn't start out bashing Bush.

LOL Smart girl.

If this debate were behind the barn instead of
in front of the whole world,
I'd like to see what W REALLY wanted to say (or do!)

"Like I said, Kerry lied repeatedly. I think the Reagan "now there you go again" would have worked well. Kerry misrepresents facts. I know it, you know it, and his coaching team knows it. He should have been well prepared for the JFKBS."

Think about it this way, JFKerry's lies were not only to present himself as smarter, better, etc., JFKerry was seeking to elicit a response from President Bush.

There simply was not enough time to tackle JFKerry's lies. Also some of the lies required more than a that not true response, which is the "quagmire" JFKerry was trying to lay for the President to step into.

Personally, I am proud that President Bush showed considered restraint. JFKerry is a trained talker and he is quite professional at distortion of facts just for the sake of it. Quite different to already be in the position of leadership and show that leadership by not debating a liar over his lies.

He seems to have totally missed the "Global test" question. Kerry blew it tonight. By responsing that he would defend America only if the cause "met the global test".

Sitting in my living room in a comfortable chair with soft lighting, I often think how much better I would do on Jeopardy than most of the contestants.

Then I remind myself it's probably not quite the same under the bright lights with the "game-time" pressure.

Pres. Bush actually worked on the day of the debate. He toured the hurricane destruction and tried to comfort people and do an assessment. Sen. Kerry had a manicure, worked on his teeth, his hair, his skin, his wardrobe, etc, with a staff. One man was pampered, the other tried to do what he's paid to do. If he was tired and didn't come up to your expectations as a great debater, well I guess that is sad but a LOT of us look beyond the emptiness of rhetoric and style. And it isn't as if we don't know him, as we didn't 4 years ago. We know him very well.

Quite different to already be in the position of leadership and show that leadership by not debating a liar over his lies.

Oooo...I like that.

Kerry lost the election with the "global test" statement

That is my view too. Should of see the Trolls and the Freepers suffering from McCanism flame out when I posted that!

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