Posted on 08/22/2004 10:08:01 AM PDT by jwalsh07
Dole wants to know how Kerry got three purple hearts without "bleeding". Dole is rocking.
Wow..I love that.
Can I use it?
Well you certainly aren't a conservative. You are here to cause trouble. Go away.
You may.
LOL
Rood contradicts the claim in Unfit to Command that Kerry killed a fleeing teenager and the criticisms of Kerry's tactics. He also criticizes the SVT for calling into question the actions of his fellow vets.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408220342aug22,1,2523679.story
"Many of us wanted to put it all behind us--the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service--even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there...
The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.
We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.
The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.
The first time we took fire--the usual rockets and automatic weapons--Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes...
With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.
John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.
The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.
Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.
Congratulatory message
Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."
Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.
Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.
It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam...
But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.
Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.
Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.
The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.
Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his back yard.
Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.
With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time."
Served with him in Senate for many years. Who should know him better?
Dole didn't serve with Kerry in the Senate, though...according to the Kerry definition. You see, Dole served at the same time as Kerry, but he was on the other side of the aisle. And Dole was from Kansas, not Massachussetts. No, the only people who can say what Kerry was like in the Senate are those staffers who worked under him in his office.
Geesh...I'd give you one, and I don't even know you.
But your wound must be larger than a flea bite, and smaller than a wasp sting..to be comparable to John Heinz Kerry's wounds. Got anything like that?
Many who claim to have served, did not.
I was Army 58 to 61. In Germany 2 years.
I knew some who were in the Army who were phonies. Just because you may have been in the service does not make you smarter or better. You had to learn something while there.
bump for hopefully later read
I missed Dole's appearance too but understand he was was uncharactistically firm and resolved and took Kerry to the woodshed in a dignified way.
Lol!! Reminds me of Clinton's line..."I did not have sex with that woman, Lewinski".
Besides that, who cares if you aren't a dem, you are either uninformed or blatantly ignorant...and you don't have ( it does help though..) to be a dem to be either of those.
Matthews is a surprisingly shallow person. I remember he jumped P buchanan about saying churchill betrayed poland in WWII (by giving it to stalin, which is not what england entered the war to do), and matthews couldn't get over it, saying 'you can't criticize churchill' etc.
I am surprised any rational person would argue that poland was not sold down the river.
1. Sign form 180 and release all of John Kerry's military records.
2. Provide damage report and wound reports from the No Man Left Behind incident that provides details about just how many bullet holes were shot into the 5 boats involved, and how many of the over 20 men involved suffered a gunshot wounds during this intense firefight. By effectively demonstrating that there was enemy fire during this incident, and that some of the sailors did indeed suffer gunshot wounds, Kerry's campaign can counter the claim there was no enemy fire.
3. Have statements from the other crewmembers of Kerry's boat to the effect that Steve Gardner is lying about the 'Sampan Incident' where he claims he shot a father and a little boy to death, and in which they took a mother and infant girl aboard. Have Kerry's other crewmembers state that the after-action report Gardner called attention to is completely accurate: 4 VC were killed and two VC were Captured in Action.
4. Provide statements from other crewmembers of Kerry's boat to the effect that they do remember being in Cambodia with John Kerry, either on Christmas Day or later on while dropping off Special Forces operatives.
5. Have other crewmembers of Kerry's boat sent out to appear in interviews to counter Gardner and other Swift Vets instead of professional political hacks. Gardner was there, he was an eyewitness and so are many of the Swift Vets to the events they are making claims about. Lanny Davis, James Carville, and John Hurley were not there. Neither was Tad Devine. You can only effectively counter eyewitnesses with other eyewitnesses.
6. Have Kerry address the specific charges being leveled about his medals. If the SwiftVets are claiming the first Purple Heart wound was a 'scratch' not worthy of the medal, have Kerry come out and talk about how bad the wound was, where it was located on his arm and show any scar that still remains. Let him show the scars on his leg where the shrapnel supposedly still resides.
It must be noted that thus far, even though the Swift Vet story is building steam every day, John Kerry and his campaign managers have refused to do any of the six things listed above.
1. Kerry adamantly REFUSES to sign Form 180. Whenever he or his spokespersons are asked they insist they have released ALL records, but they clearly have not. Paperwork for Kerry's first Purple Heart has manifestly NOT been released, among several other documents. If Kerry has in fact released all of his available military records, as he claims, then there is no reason NOT to sign a Form 180.
2. Kerry's camp keeps referring to the medal citations that he and Larry Thurlow received for the No Man Left Behind event, and the after action report which Kerry wrote, which describes enemy fire coming from the banks during this action. The medal citations are based on the after action report, and since no other officer involved in this event has ever said there was enemy fire, Kerry must have written it. The most effective way to counter the over 12 eyewitness accounts that claim there was no enemy fire would be to produce the damage reports to the 5 boats involved in this incident from gunfire. It would be to produce medical reports about gunshot wounds treated due to the alleged enemy fire. Kerry's camp has NOT produced any such documentation.
The Swift Vet eyewitnesses claim the 4 other boats were stationary around PCF 3 for more than an hour doing repair and recovery operations, as well as treating the crewmen of that boat that were injured when the mine went off. That was plenty of time for these sailors and their boats to be hit by enemy small arms fire if indeed there were any. Instead, Kerry's campaign keeps insisting that since the medal citations and the after-action report written by Kerry mentions enemy fire, the matter is closed and no damage or medical reports need to be produced.
3. None of Kerry's other crewmembers have shown up on any of the networks as a counterpart to a Swift Vet for Truth spokesman during a debate. All the spokespeople for Kerry's camp have been professional poltical people, not Vietnam eyewitnesses to the specific events being discussed.
Another Kerry boatcrew member would be the most effective challenger to Steve Gardner's account of the 'Sampan Incident'. Such a person could say "Steve, I was there, we did kill four VC and capture two just like the report says." Instead we get John Hurley sputtering that Gardner is making it all up. Kerry's camp has had two weeks to get their eyewitness out there, including Kerry himself. They have not done so.
4. Kerry has pretty much given up on the Christmas in Cambodia, but has also 'floated' the idea that he was there later on dropping off Special Forces. All Kerry has to do is produce crewmembers of his own boat who can look into a camera and say "I was in Cambodia with John Kerry". They have NOT done so.
5. Once again, the best counter to an eyewitness is another eyewitness. Kerry claims to have up to 13 eyewitnesses on his side versus over 60 for the Swift Vet's For Truth. The Swift Vet's eyewitnesses can be seen on TV and heard on the radio almost every day for the past two weeks. They have been on Hardball with Christ Matthews, Hannity and Colmes, The No Spin Zone, Rush Limbaugh, and more. Kerry's eyewitnesses have been............................nowhere. Unseen and unheard. Whenever John O'Neil, Larry Thurlow, Steve Gardner or another Swift Vet is going to appear, the Kerry Campaign has had opportunity after opportunity to put one of Kerry's boat crewmembers on the show as well. They have NOT done so. As a matter of fact, the one statement I can find where one of Kerry's Swift Vet backers discusses the Christmas in Cambodia controversy, Meideros says he doesn't remember ever being in Cambodia with John Kerry.
6. Kerry has refused to address the specific charges regarding the wounds that resulted in his first and third Purple Hearts. Not once has he said that the wound to his arm that resulted in his first Purple Heart was a 'substantial' or 'serious' wound. He has not stated how many stitches were required to close it or how much blood he lost due to it. Numerous eyewitnesses, including his commanding officer, state the wound was a mere scratch. He has not produced a SINGLE MEDICAL RECORD that discusses the nature of the wounds for which he got his first and his third Purple Heart, and I am not sure about the second one, I will have to check. All the eyewitnesses besides himself state these first and third Purple Heart wounds were so slight they had nothing but contempt for Kerry as they watched him try to wrangle medals out of them. After Kerry's attempt to get his first Purple Heart for the slight scratch on his arm, the one where his C.O. Grant Hibbard threw him out of his office, Kerry was assigned to take his boat to An Thoi with another swift boat commanded by Lieutenant Tedd Peck, who told him "Kerry, follow me no closer than a thousand yards. If you get any closer, I'll teach you what a real Purple Heart is."
Instead of doing these six things that would effectively counter the Swift Vet's For Truth ads and book, Kerry has:
1. Filed a complait with the FEC claiming that Swiftboat Vets for Truth is funded and coordinated as a part of the Bush-Cheney campaign and not a real 527 organization. 2. Claimed all the Swift Vets For Truth, over 200 of them, are all Republicans who are lying. 3. Put pressure on TV stations and bookstores not to air the ads and to not display the book. 4. Asked Regenry, publishers of Unfit For Command, to cease publishing the book. 5. Claimed that President Bush is using the Swiftboat Vets For Truth to attack his war record and challenged the President to 'Bring it on!'.
Every step that Kerry has made on this issue has been a mis-step. He has changed his story, not provided any eyewitness to counter the specific Swift Vet charges, and has instead attempted to censor the charges by having the ads and the book pulled instead of answering the charges. He then makes every effort to tie the Swift Vets to the Bush campaign, the strategy being if he can prove Bush is funding and directing SBVFT the organization is instantly and automatically discredited and no one need look seriously at the charges that are being leveled against him.
Thus far, Kerry's defense has been misdirection and avoidance and attempts at censorship.
Can he really keep this up for the next two and a half months?
I don't think so.
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Pilfered from another thread....But ari, you should pay close attention to the last few paragraphs.
FWIW-
I LOVE your tagline!
:)
I know that.
Are you aware of where the Swift Vets got the "fleeing teenager" story? Just guess.
John Kerry
Now, can you see that Rood's conflict is with *John Kerry*, not the Swift Vets?
(I know, you feel silly. Well, I would think so!)
See this article published on June 16, 2003 (well over a year ago) by Michael Kranish, Boston Globe reporter and Kerry biographer. Here he reports *Kerry's* story well before the Swift Vets grouped together and wrote their book:
Heroism, and growing concern about war
excerpt:
This exhausting and harrowing week was only the beginning for Kerry. On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry's boat received word that a swift boat was being ambushed. As Kerry raced to the scene, his boat became another target, as a Viet Cong B-40 rocket blast shattered a window. Kerry could have ordered his crew to hit the enemy and run. But the skipper had a more aggressive reaction in mind. Beach the boat, Kerry ordered, and the craft's bow was quickly rammed upon the shoreline. Out of the bush appeared a teenager in a loin cloth, clutching a grenade launcher.
~snip~
and the criticisms of Kerry's tactics.
There have been questions before about Kerry's decision making and actions on that day. He's always been given the benefit of the doubt until now. More than he grants to anyone he perceives as foe.
From the same article:
"When [Kerry] came back from the well-publicized action where he beached his boat in middle of ambush and chased a VC around a hootch and ended his life, when [Kerry] came back and I heard his debrief, I said, `John, I don't know whether you should be court-martialed or given a medal, court-martialed for leaving your ship, your post,"' Elliott recalled in an interview.
~snip~
He also criticizes the SVT for calling into question the actions of his fellow vets.
Tell it to John "they cut off limbs" Kerry.
Some of us who were in Vietnam weren't really in Vietnam. We were at Cam Ranh Bay.
But come to think of it, at least one of us won a Purple Heart at Cam Ranh.
Kerry figured if he finagled 3 Ph in a short time he would be tranferred before he saw some real action.
Poor McCain. Looks like he took a few too many beatings as a POW while Kerry was calling him a baby murder.
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