Posted on 08/21/2004 8:41:10 AM PDT by Pikamax
Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete And Flawed Clashes Roil Kerry Campaign
By Michael Dobbs Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, August 22, 2004; Page A01
When John F. Kerry rescued James Rassmann from the Bay Hap River in the jungles of Vietnam in March 1969, neither man could possibly have imagined that the episode would become a much-disputed focus of an American presidential campaign 35 years later.
For Kerry, then a green and gangly Navy lieutenant junior grade and now the Democratic challenger to a wartime Republican president, that tale of heroism under fire has become integral to his campaign. A centerpiece of public rallies, videos and a new campaign advertisement last week, it has helped distinguish the candidate from his Democratic primary rivals and from President Bush, who spent the war at home as a member of the Texas Air National Guard.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
In fact, Kerry says that he did, himself, request that. He goes on to say that one man wanted to stay behind, and Kerry went and had a heart-to-heart with him.
Interesting -
Kerry continues downstream until he relizes Rassmann is gone.
Seems to me that he would have kept bugging out if Rassmann was able to hang on ...
Only the one where he kills Col. Kurtz with a machete.
O'Neill was right that Dobbs did not interview anyone of the swift boat vets and Dobbs lied to you in his e-mail.
You should reply to him and tell him that he spoke to swift boat vets supporters!!!!! and not to the swift boat vets themselves.
Hi again .. I found it.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml <-- Boston Globe online - no registration required, long read, worth the time)
Here's an interesting tidbit from the Globe article ...
" Kerry's early departure meant that he was leaving behind a crew that had suffered through many bloody battles with him. Worried that crew members would be killed, he arranged for them to receive a safer assignment. When one crew member, Medeiros, tried to stay, Kerry "came and talked to me and said, `I really would like you to go. ... I'd like to know you are safe, or safer."'"
See also http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1186837/posts?page=42#42 <-- Clickit
Probably. The question I want answered is whether or not there was enemy fire other than the mine.
I'd also like to know the injuries and circumstances of the injuries. THere are issues about how many mines were involved. Kerry's boat was not damaged at all.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1132586/posts <-- One mine? or two?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1186837/posts <-- General discussion
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml <-- Long but worth it.
I noticed that too, and was about to point it out if no one else did. Given that this graphic isn't likely to be exactly to scale anyway, the fact that the Post had to put in a "break" signifier indicates that there was a HUGE separation between Kerry's boat and the others -- the Post apparently knows that Kerry's boat was one hell of a long way away, and that it couldn't get away with a graphic that made it look as if he was within shouting distance of the others, so instead of coming out and saying so, they hoped to gloss it over with the "break" in the image and hoped that few people would grasp what it meant.
The one where Rassmann was on another boat entirely when he fell off.
On March 13, 1969, Rassmann, a Green Beret, was traveling down the Bay Hap river in a boat behind Kerry’s when both were ambushed by exploding land mines and enemy fire coming from the shore. Kerry was hit in the arm, while a mine blew Rassmann’s boat out of the water. With enemy fire coming from both sides of the river and swift boats evacuating from the area, Kerry’s crew chose to turn their boat toward the ambush to save Rassmann.
-PJ
My home page is MSNBC and this was the headline. They haven't had diddly squat about the Swift boat story in the past...so how's a reader like me supposed to know about this stuff?
I think this article is the first indication of the mainstream media and liberal establishment's plan of response to this whole matter. From this point forward we'll see articles that suggest that both sides are unclear about their recollections. This is a clear attempt to PLAY TO A DRAW on the subject. I think they know their guy fabricates, but can't let the swiftees dominate the argument, so best outcome for them is to call it even. It's just another way to say to their public, "nothing to see here, move along."
Excellent point. Not every veteran is a member of some group that the media can poll and calculate votes thereby. Kerry's blanket slam of vets will have its repurcussons. Probably greater than he figured.
I went looking for sources for my comment about the version where Rassmann was on another boat entirely, and I found it, along with some other interesting "variations" and accounts that clash with the Washington Post's version (or Kerry's other versions). I've bolded the most relevant/controversial parts, and my inline comments are in green. In no particular order:
From http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index2.html (written by Kerry biographer Brinkley):
Almost casually, the Swifts formed up and headed out from the village. The five boats had gone about half a mile when the blast came. Right where they had been hit on an earlier mission, a mine exploded directly beneath Lieutenant James Rassman's PCF-3 near Kerry's port side. Rassman's Swift lifted about two feet up out of the water, engulfed in mud and spray, then settled, rocking so hard from side to side that the boat started zigzagging from the banks to the middle of the river. Everybody on board PCF-3 was wounded [so how many got purple hearts?]. "At the same moment, we came under a hail of small-arms fire from both banks," Kerry recorded in his journal. "I turned the boat into the fire on the left with the intention of trying to get the troops ashore on the outskirts of the ambush, but Sandusky, who was driving the boat and who had his eyes glued on the crippled 3 boat, pointed out to me how badly hit they had been. We veered back toward her then[the original left turn should have had them heading towards PCF3 already?] and tried to provide cover from the engaged side. Suddenly another explosion went off right beside us, and the concussion threw me violently against the bulkhead on the door, and I smashed my arm. At the same instant, Jim Rassman was blown overboard, although nobody knew it. But we continued sidling up to the 3 [according to Kerry, they approached PCF3 after losing Rassmann and before picking him up -- this in no way reconciles with the Washington Post account], and as we came closer I could see that her twin-.50 mount over the pilothouse had been completely blown out of its stand and had landed on the gunner. No one was moving on the stern. [PCF-3 crewman] Ken Tryner, on his first real river expedition, was kneeling dazed in the doorway with a small trickle of blood down his face, aimlessly firing his M-79."There's more on the page after that one that needs to be looked at too.Thurlow had maneuvered his PCF-53 over by this time, and he hopped aboard PCF-3 to offer assistance. The boat was a shambles, but they were still shooting too hard to assess the damage. "Someone on the fantail must have noticed Jim swimming in back of us, ducking against the fire that was trying to pick him off because I suddenly heard the yell of 'man overboard' and looked back to see the bullets splashing in the water beside him," Kerry reported. "We turned around with the engines screaming against each other -- one full astern, the other full forward -- and then charged the several hundred yards back [they were a LONG way away from where Rassmann had gone into the water] into the ambush where Jim was trying to find some cover. Everyone on board must have been firing without pause to keep the sniper heads down."
From http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/05/ip.01.html (CNN's "Inside Politics"):
WOODRUFF: Larry Thurlow, I want to -- I want to begin with you. You essentially, as I understand it, you, too, won a Bronze Star, like John Kerry did. The incident in which John Kerry pulled Jim Rassmann out of -- out of the river...
LARRY THURLOW, APPEARS IN ANTI-KERRY AD: Yes?WOODRUFF: ... in Vietnam, Kerry says that this happened under enemy fire, that Rassmann had been knocked in the water, he went back and was the first to get to Rassmann and pulled him out of the water. You essentially said that's not what happened. What are you saying?
THURLOW: My recollection of that day is still pretty vivid after all these years. And what I remember, Judy, is that the incident involving Mr. Rassmann, five boats had come out of the river after running an operation up in the canal earlier that day. Three boats were going through a fishing weir on the left side of the river that had put in place between the time we entered and when we were leaving.
I'm the third boat in that column left. In the column right, there are two boats. The lead boat is John Kerry's.
He's going through a rather small opening on the right bank that (ph) had been left in his boat. The boat leading our column, as it goes through that small opening almost simultaneously, is blasted completely out of the water by a command detonated mine.
WOODRUFF: This is another boat?
THURLOW: This is a 3-boat (ph) -- this is on the opposite side of the river of John Kerry's boat. At this point, John Kerry speeds out of the area, I assume to clear the kill zone. The rest of the boats, however, went to the aid of the 3-boat (ph), which was completely disabled. Two members of that crew are in the water, the rest are badly wounded and basically incapacitated on board that boat.
WOODRUFF: You're basically saying he fled when there was...
(CROSSTALK)
THURLOW: I am saying he fled the area [up]on the explosion under the 3-boat (ph).
WOODRUFF: All right. Well, before -- and let me ask Jim Rassmann about that part of the story before we ask what happened to him.
Jim Rassmann, what -- what do you say happened that day in March, 1969?
JIM RASSMANN, KERRY SUPPORTER: Well, first, I was not part of John Kerry's command. I was a Special Forces officer who happened to be on his boat at that time.
Mr. Thurlow's recollection of what occurred is not accurate. We had the boat hit the mine to our left. And John immediately had his driver, Del Sandusky (ph), turn to the left and head towards it.
And it was at that time that our gunner on the bow got his gun knocked out and he started screaming for another weapon. I ran another weapon up to me, and we hit something or something hit us. There was an explosion, and I was blown off the boat to the right.
WOODRUFF: And you ended up in the water how?
RASSMANN: I was blown into the water, and I had boats coming up behind me. So, I went to the bottom of the river. [how in the hell did Rassmann have "boats", plural, coming up behind him, when Kerry's boat was being followed by *one* boat, and all of the other boats were on the opposite bank of the river at the PCF3 boat, which Kerry was allegedly heading *towards*?]
WOODRUFF: Now, as I understand it, Larry Thurlow, you have a different version of how Jim Rassmann was in the water.
THURLOW: Yes, I do. My thought is that since no mine was detected on the other side of the river, no blast was seen, no noise heard, there's two things that are inconsistent with my memory.
Our boats immediately put automatic weapons fire on to the left bank just in case there was an ambush in conjunction with the mine. It soon became apparent there was no ambush.
The rescue efforts began on the 3-boat (ph). And at this time, the second boat in line, mine being the third boat on the left bank, began to do this.
Now, two members in this boat, keep in mind, are in the river at that time. They're picked up. The boat that picks them up starts toward Lieutenant Rassmann at this time, that's the 23-boat (ph). But before they get there, John does return and pick him up. But I distinctly remember we were under no fire from either bank.
WOODRUFF: Jim Rassmann, what about that? You hear Mr. Thurlow saying there was no enemy fire at that point.
RASSMANN: Mr. Thurlow is being disingenuous. I don't know what his motivation is, but I was receiving fire in the water every time I came up for air. I don't recall anybody being in the area around us until I came up maybe five or six times for air and Kerry came back to pick me up out of the water.
WOODRUFF: Disingenuous. He says you are being disingenuous in not recalling what happened.
THURLOW: Let me ask Mr. Rassmann this question: I also ended up in the water that day during the rescue efforts on the 3-boat (ph). [Thurlow ended up in the water when he tried to board PCF3 in order to help the wounded and the boat lurched] And my boat, the 51-boat (ph), came up, picked me up, business as usual. I got back on board, went about the business at hand.
I received no fire. But the thing I would like to ask is, we have five boats now, John's returning, and four boats basically dead in the water, working on the 3-boat (ph). If we were receiving fire off the bank, how come not one single boat received one bullet hole, nobody was hit, no sign of any rounds hitting the water while I was in it?
From http://pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/109110480797670.xml:
Rassmann, a former Green Beret, remembered sitting on the deck of the pilothouse of Kerry's boat, eating a chocolate-chip cookie, [oookay - in the other version he was frantically running to get a replacement gun for the gunner during a firefight] when an explosion under a nearby boat blew him into the Bay Hap River and caused Kerry to smash his arm. [nearby boat? Couldn't have been PCF3, it was on the other side of the river]Rassmann said he instinctively swam to the bottom of the river to avoid being run over by the escaping Swift boats. ["escaping"?] But every time he came up for air, the enemy shot at him. He swam for the north bank, expecting to be captured and probably executed.
After five or six dives, Rassmann said, he looked up and saw Kerry's boat coming back for him. He met the boat at the center of the river and then grabbed a heavy net made of rope hanging over the bow.
From http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0117d.html (a Kerry campaign press release):
On March 13, 1969, Rassmann, a Green Beret, was traveling down the Bay Hap river in a boat behind Kerry’s [That would be PCF43] when both were ambushed by exploding land mines [horse manure -- plus, "LAND" mines??] and enemy fire coming from the shore. Kerry was hit in the arm, while a mine blew Rassmann’s boat out of the water. [PCF43? No way] With enemy fire coming from both sides of the river and swift boats evacuating from the area [only Kerry's...], Kerry’s crew chose to turn their boat toward the ambush to save Rassmann.
From Congressional Record: January 28, 1998 (Senate) Page S186-S187 :
JOHN KERRY. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent to have printed in the Record the text of the eulogy I gave for my friend, Thomas M. Belodeau, on November 10, 1997.There was the time we were carrying Special Forces up a river and a mine exploded under our boat sending it 2 feet into the air. We were receiving incoming rocket and small arms fire and Tommy was returning fire with his M-60 machine gun when it literally broke apart in his hands. He was left holding the pieces unable to fire back while one of the Green Berets walked along the edge of the boat to get Tommy another M-60. As he was doing so, the boat made a high speed turn to starboard and the Green Beret kept going--straight into the river. [In *this* version, from Kerry's own mouth, Rassmann was STILL ON THE BOAT after the alleged "explosion" near Kerry's boat, and even was performing a specific post-explosion task when a *sharp turn* sent him into the water] The entire time while the boat went back to get the Green Beret, Tommy was without a machine gun or a weapon of any kind, but all the time he was hurling the greatest single string of Lowell-Chelmsford curses ever heard at the Viet Cong. He literally had swear words with tracers on them! [Note how this contradicts another Kerry account, here: "Everyone else was firing a machine gun or something, except for Sandusky, who was maneuvering the boat, trying not to run over Jim but also trying to get near him as quickly as possible." -- so which is it? Was Tommy "without a weapon of any kind" during the Rassmann "rescue" and swearing about it, or was "everyone" firing a gun except for the driver?]
From http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/08/MNGKO4RLT71.DTL:
Rassmann's river patrol of Swift boats had been blown out of the water in a barrage of fire from Viet Cong AK-47s and rocket launchers. [ooookay...] He had come up for air, taking sniper fire from both banks, sure "my ticket was punched.''Then miraculously, sailing back through a hail of artillery, was Kerry. Wounded himself, the young Navy lieutenant braved bullets to pull Rassmann aboard.
From http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/29/ip.01.html (CNN):
JIM RASSMANN, VIETNAM VETERAN: The fifth time I came up for air, the cavalry was coming back around a bend in a river to the rescue. And John's boat driver ran over me and I grabbed a hold of a cargo net over the bow of the boat and started to muscle up, but it was too steep. I couldn't get over the lip.All this time, we were under intense fire. And John took it upon himself, wounded, to come up to the bow and expose himself to fire and he helped me over that bow. And I was saved.
From http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005460 (Rassmann's WSJ opinion piece):
While returning from a SEA LORDS operation along the Bay Hap River, a mine detonated under another swift boat. Machine-gun fire erupted from both banks of the river, and a second explosion followed moments later. [moments later? In Kerry's account, they had time to make two course changes before the "second" mine] The second blast blew me off John's swift boat, PCF-94, throwing me into the river. Fearing that the other boats would run me over, I swam to the bottom of the river and stayed there as long as I could hold my breath.When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left, and I was alone taking fire from both banks. To avoid the incoming fire, I repeatedly swam under water as long as I could hold my breath, attempting to make it to the north bank of the river. I thought I would die right there. The odds were against me avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it out of the river, I thought I'd be captured and executed. Kerry must have seen me in the water and directed his driver, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat around. Kerry's boat ran up to me in the water, bow on, and I was able to climb up a cargo net to the lip of the deck. But, because I was nearly upside down, I couldn't make it over the edge of the deck. This left me hanging out in the open, a perfect target. John, already wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat, came out onto the bow, exposing himself to the fire directed at us from the jungle, and pulled me aboard.
I find it hard to believe someone would try to "blow up rice" with a grenade.
Burning it, dumping into the river, sure...but "fragging" grains of rice?
What's interesting is that the media have now concluded is that the best that Kerry can do is play for the draw. This Post article is the first mainstream media acknowledgement that the Vets have at least some valid claims or questions about Kerry's conduct. If we keep the pressure on them, the MSM will be forced to eventually examine all the issues. Then, at that point, some establishment media guy will demand to see Kerry's military records, and when that happens, Kerry's goose will be officially cooked. He can't possibly show sign the Form 180; but if he doesn't, he will look to all the world like he's hiding something.
You and I wish - but you are minimizing the ignorant kool-aid drinkers in the electorate, now a near majority, who don't even vet 'their' candidate, or use logic in deciding how to cast their vote, and close their eyes and ears to any criticism of their heroes.
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