Records Counter a Critic of Kerry

Washington Post ^ | 8/19/04 | Michael Dobbs

[NotchJohnson]

The consensus with the media will be that the book is innacurate and can't be trusted. If one sattement is off why bother following uo with anything else.

[mewzilla]

Anyone know why Thurlow's records can be FOIA'ed and not Kerry's?

[Cboldt]

The SITREP for the incident (which is on Kerry campaign website) recites, in part:

PCF 23 joined at Cai Nuoc. PCFS with MFS [The Swift Boat with Rassman on it] departed Cai Nuoc at 1445H proceeding down Bay Hap. At VQ995772 mine detonated under PCF-3 lifting boat about 2-3 ft out of water. Very heavy blk smot [? smoke, I think] observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. ..."

Therefore, the Swiftees (and the press) knew, and have known for quite awhile, of at least -one- official record that included small arms fire. In other words, this is, in a way, already old news.

I am surprised that the Swiftees did not have Thurlow's citation.

[tomahawk]

I presume that Thurlow and Kerry weren't the only two present at the time of the incident. I suspect the other Swifties back up Thurlow, but haven't read the book yet (still awaiting it from Amazon).

[tomahawk]

This whole BS by the Compost has inspired me to donate another $25 to the SwiftVets.

[mewzilla]

Maybe they didn't have this...er, copy of it?

Just how in Hades did anyone get a copy if Thurlow didn't fill out the proper release?

You can't FOIA this stuff, can you?

If not, then somebody bloody well broke the law. How do we even know the doc's legit?

[AFPhys]

Right - the citation gets read to you, often for the first time, when you are given the medal. Often, you are not really in any position to even much listen to it (At attention in front of a huge group, mostly hoping to God you look good and don't collapse) much less critique it, and it kidn of flies by. Looking at the wording of the citation later on is seldom high on your list of things to do, and correcting minor errors in the wording is even lower on the lise, even if you ever do look at the citation.

[mewzilla]

And now that I think about it, if these docs were obtained illegally, then the media can't claim ignorance because they've been covering their own butts by saying Kerry hasn't released the records.

[Cboldt]

There you are .. this was covered and discussed a bit in an earlier thread. The SITREP for this incident has been around for quite awhile. It recites S/A and A/W enemy fire.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1191248/posts <-- Mash here

PCF 23 joined at Cai Nuoc. PCFS with MFS [The Swift Boat with Rassman on it] departed Cai Nuoc at 1445H proceeding down Bay Hap. At VQ995772 mine detonated under PCF-3 lifting boat about 2-3 ft out of water. Very heavy blk smot [? smoke, I think] observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. ..."

So, the Swiftees knew they would have to contend with at least this official record, if not Thurlow's Bronze Star citation. I -am- surprized that Thurlow's Bronze Star citation recites that he jumped boats and rescued multiple crewmembers while under fire. When PCF-3 beached, Thurlow was thrown from PCF-3, and was himself picked up. PCF-3 was motoring around without a helmsman when THurlow jumped on it. The entire crew of PCF-3 was disabled at the time.

Your point, NO BULLET HOLES, is quite relevant.

[Cboldt]

If any after action reports exist, SBV better have them and be ready to produce them.

They already exist, have been out for months (at Kerry campaign website). The SITREP for this incident reads, in part:

PCF 23 joined at Cai Nuoc. PCFS with MFS [The Swift Boat with Rassman on it] departed Cai Nuoc at 1445H proceeding down Bay Hap. At VQ995772 mine detonated under PCF-3 lifting boat about 2-3 ft out of water. Very heavy blk smot [? smoke, I think] observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. ..."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1191248/posts <-- Check around posts 100+

[Cboldt]

... it is the same reason why Thurlow didn't know Kerry had done this and why he - of all people - feels shame over the receipt of that medal because of its taint by Kerry.

Thurlow jumped from his boat, to the moving but disabled PCF-3. He was helping disabled crew of PCF-3 when PCF-3 ran aground, and he (Thurlow) was thrown off PCF-3. He might have reasonably thought those actions alone, not under enemy fire, were the basis for his Bronze Star. THere is no requirement to be injured, or to be under enemy fire, to be awarded the Bronze Star (however, there is a requirement to be injured "by enemy fire" (more or less) in order to obtain a PH.

[Uncle Vlad]

I would take this one with a grain of salt, too. You remember the Boston Globe invented a story about one of the Swift Boat vets recanting his story. The vet said the same day that the news story was a lie, and it was later found out that the story was fabricated. I wouldn't put anything past the main stream media. Again, we were all taken in under the pretense that these people are actually reporting the news.

[Cboldt]

So the Washington Post's big scoop is that Thurlow's citation contends that there were bullets flying overhead.

I haven't read close, but bullets flyiig overhead can be friendly fire.

I'm just cathing up on the thread, pointing out that the official record SITREP already contained statements that included enemy A/W and S/A fire. So, that "lie" of Kerry's has been out and available for the media for months, yet none of them jumped on it.

"PCF 23 joined at Cai Nuoc. PCFS with MFS [The Swift Boat with Rassman on it] departed Cai Nuoc at 1445H proceeding down Bay Hap. At VQ995772 mine detonated under PCF-3 lifting boat about 2-3 ft out of water. Very heavy blk smot [? smoke, I think] observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. ..."

The original source for that is at the Kerry campaign website, SITREPS for March, 1969.

[Radix]

You notice they are investigating the Vets and not Kerry.

Very astute observation.

[OldFriend]

I suspect that when the underwater bomb hit the one boat all sorts of things were flying thru the air. No doubt all the gunners on the boats were strafing the shore on both sides.

I heard this described by one of the swift vets for truth.

[Maine Referee]

http://www.hedgefundmistress.com/images/ballot_box.jpg

[Indie]

I KNEW this was going to happen!!!!

All it takes is one, and their credibility is shot. Of course with EFnK, he can lie all day long and lose no credibility with the MSM.

[UncleJeff]

As a matter of fact, I have. Kerry's were quite good, and if this guy wrote them from second-or-third hand knowledge he was a piss-poor Commander.

[Cboldt]

All it takes is one, and their credibility is shot.

Hold firm. This story is not as useful to Kerry as it appears on the surface. It does make for sound-bites that run against the SBVFT, similar to the sound-bites created when the Boston GLobe asserted that Elliott "recanted" part of his testimony.

The "Elliott recanted" meme is still part of the DEM lexicon. They NEVER admit they were lying, not even when caught red-handed.

Also, it has been know for months that the official record includes a statement that there was enemy fire (in addition to the mine) during this incident. The Situation Report for March 13 recites:

"PCF 23 joined at Cai Nuoc. PCFS with MFS [The Swift Boat with Rassman on it] departed Cai Nuoc at 1445H proceeding down Bay Hap. At VQ995772 mine detonated under PCF-3 lifting boat about 2-3 ft out of water. Very heavy blk smot [? smoke, I think] observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. ..."

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/SpotReports_March1969.pdf <-- See 3rd page

[Blood of Tyrants]

Here is another point, except for the one that hit the mine, not a single boat had so much as a single bullet hole in it that day. The event was inflated that day.