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To: Junior
maybe someone here can help me refute some creationistic information that i am having trouble with (i'm looking for logic as much as science but any information will do):

a) is a sequence of genomes considered coded information? if not, why not?

b) if so (you can guess where this is going), does mutation/selection ever add to that information? if that is an irrelevant question please explain why.

c) if genetic sequences are information, and mutation/selection does not add to it (i'm not assuming it does, answer (b) first), does that go against abiogenesis which has to starts out at the absolute simplest level (non-life)? (i know, evolution and origin-of-life are two different things, that is not what i'm asking)

i do ask in sincerity. thank you.

241 posted on 08/16/2004 7:35:07 PM PDT by kpp_kpp
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To: kpp_kpp
maybe someone here can help me refute some creationistic information that i am having trouble with (i'm looking for logic as much as science but any information will do):

I'll try to help.

a) is a sequence of genomes considered coded information? if not, why not?

Yes it is. Although "a sequence of genomes" isn't exactly the right way to phrase it. "A genome's sequence" might be better. A genome is the entirety of an individual's DNA, so a "sequence of genomes" would imply something like placing multiple DNA sets in certain orders, which I'm sure isn't what you meant.

DNA is encoded in several ways, the most basic being "the genetic code", which maps triplets of basepairs onto specific amino acids.

b) if so (you can guess where this is going), does mutation/selection ever add to that information? if that is an irrelevant question please explain why.

Mutation can indeed add to that information. They can also remove information, or alter information without increasing/decreasing it. It depends upon what kind of mutation has taken place, there are several varieties.

Selection is a bit trickier to give a direct answer for, because it affects information distributions within the population, and thus in order to give an answer you'd have to specify which information measure you're asking about at the moment (e.g. total information size, information diversity, etc.). But selection can also increase, decrease, or change information depending upon circumstances.

c) if genetic sequences are information, and mutation/selection does not add to it (i'm not assuming it does, answer (b) first), does that go against abiogenesis which has to starts out at the absolute simplest level (non-life)? (i know, evolution and origin-of-life are two different things, that is not what i'm asking)

Not a problem, since mutation/selection can indeed increase information, and fine-tune what information is present.

580 posted on 08/17/2004 11:36:57 PM PDT by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: kpp_kpp; Ichneumon
maybe someone here can help me refute some creationistic information that i am having trouble with (i'm looking for logic as much as science but any information will do): a) is a sequence of genomes considered coded information? if not, why not?

Ichneumon has already responded to this. Your original post wasn't addressed to me, so I didn't spend much time on it. I want to add that the expression "coded information" has sent many a novice into a frenzied search for the "message" that the "Great Ones" have slipped into our cells. That's a misunderstanding of the word information, which to those in the field refers to the arrangment, but not to some concealed message.

I recall a long ago science fiction story about an actual message, however. Some creatures were in a battle, and needed to communicate with HQ, but all their stuff was inoperable, so they slipped a code into a handy creature's DNA and tweaked it to send it on the road to evolving into an intelligent species. (The story involves both a hidden message and an Intelligent Design.) It took millions of years, but the little lizzard's descendants did become intelligent tool-makers, and eventually built a starship and sent a courior to the long-ago HQ, landed, went into the capitol, and announced (if I recall): "The war is over, and we've defeated the snarfs." At that point, it's destiny fulfilled, the critter's programmed purpose ended and it just ran around on the ground chasing its tail. Anyway, when biologists talk about the "genetic code" that's definitely not what they mean.

582 posted on 08/18/2004 3:36:58 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (If I never respond to you, maybe it's because I think you're an idiot.)
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