Posted on 08/09/2004 3:43:53 AM PDT by JohnHuang2
"If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you." So Christ told his disciples, and so it has again come to pass.
Not since Stalin's time have Christians been so savagely persecuted. But it is no longer communists who are the great persecutors, but Islamist mobs from Africa to the Balkans to Indonesia.
Last Sunday during evening services, terrorists detonated car bombs outside five Catholic churches in Mosul and Baghdad. A dozen worshipers perished. Scores of women and children were injured.
Now the Christians are fleeing. In Damascus, Rita Zekert, who heads the Caritas Migrant Center, says that where, a year ago, the refugees were Shiite, Sunni, Christian and Kurd in rough proportion to each's share of the population, "nowadays, 95 percent of the people coming to us are Iraqi Christians."
According to the New York Times, these refugees "tell of Christian shopkeepers killed by Islamist gangs for daring to sell alcohol, of family businesses sold to ransom stolen children ... They left Iraq, they say, only because they were too terrorized to stay."
"All Sunday's attacks were against Catholics rather than Eastern Orthodox churches, suggesting that Christians who owed their allegiance to Rome had become targets in the anti-Western campaign, Catholic clerics said," says the Financial Times, adding, "Iraq's 650,000-strong Christian community is depleting fast. Most of the 3 million Christians of Iraqi origin now live abroad, mainly in the U.S. and Western Europe. Tens of thousands have moved to Syria and Jordan, many crammed into tenement blocks, living on charity, banned from work and waiting for visas out of the Arab world."
From Lebanon, scores of thousands of Catholics have fled in recent decades, leaving those behind as a shrinking minority in a Muslim land where they once flourished and, indeed, led.
Last May, in Nigeria's second city, Kano, Muslim youth went on a midnight rampage with cutlasses, clubs and machetes, massacring 600 Christians and leaving their bodies in the streets. Sixteen churches burned to the ground. The senior Muslim cleric in the city ordered all Christians out. Some 30,000 were driven from their homes.
In Kosovo in March, Albanian mobs, enraged over false rumors that Serbs were responsible for the drowning of three Muslim boys, looted and torched 17 monasteries, churches and convents. To protect these same Kosovar Albanians, the United States launched a 78-day bombing campaign on Belgrade and Serbia in 1999.
All the world is today focused on Darfur in the western Sudan. Forgotten are the millions of Christians in the southern Sudan who suffered torture, slavery, mutilations, rapes, starvation, massacres and exile at the hands of Sudanese soldiers after Khartoum declared Islamic law for the nation.
Between 1974, when Indonesia invaded East Timor, and 1999, when East Timor voted for independence, the United Nations has documented at least 120 massacres, with many involving hundreds of dead in this small Catholic country. After independence, Indonesian troops slaughtered over 1,000 East Timorese in rage over their decision to break free of Jakarta.
In Egypt, the 6 million Christian Copts have begun openly to protest persecution by Muslim fanatics and local authorities. If, as President Bush has assured us, "Islam is a religion of peace," what is going on? Why the persecutions? Why the rampages and massacres to force peaceful Christians to flee their homes in Nigeria, Sudan, Kosovo, Iraq, Egypt, Indonesia?
Answer: What is going on in the Islamic world is something akin to what happened in Europe from the Spanish Reconquista in 1492 through the Thirty Years War. As Isabella was determined to expel the Moors and de-Islamicize all of Spain, militant Muslims are today determined to expel all Christians and to de-Christianize the Islamic world.
They intend not only to drive Americans out of Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other Arab lands, but to drive the Christian minorities out – as aliens, traitors and collaborators of the West. Islamic terrorists are engaged in what has been called Fourth Generation warfare, warfare by non-state actors, warfare that will not be defeated with Tomahawk missiles and F-16s. And the militant Islamists conducting this form of warfare against Christian minorities in their midst are only confirmed in the justice of their jihad by America's imperial presence in Iraq and our domination of the Middle East and Arab world.
The Western empires came and conquered the Islamic world in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They then departed or were driven out in wars of national liberation. But the Christian minorities who had lived peacefully there for 20 centuries, and who were left behind when the West went home, are now paying the price of our occupations and of militant Islam's determination to purge and purify the Dar al Islam of all the hated residue of the Christian West.
OKAY OKAY OKAY...WHOA there cowboys..time to put the six shooters back where they belong..and get back to the range
lets get some perspective....
we have our disagreements and horrors in christanity...some awful..some terrible..BUT HTIS IS THE 21 CENTURY
i dont see tens of thousands of catholis beheading and raping protestants or tens of thousands of protestants beheading and raping catholics...today
3. every religion (yes Havoc, yes Soothing) have there disgraceful moments.
Why dont we look at the here and now and to calm your nerves i will recite a poem (jeeze anythign but a poem) from Pastor Neimuller-- (i think thats his name...oh MY GAWD, is that a catholic quoting a protestant...RUN TO THE HILLS!) . HE was murdered under the nazis
first they came for the jews
i am not a jew so i said nothing
then they came for the communists
i am not a communist , so i said nothing
then the came for the socialists
i am not a socialist, so i said nothing
then the came for ME,
and no was left to speak out
NOw unless ye are all MORONS (i know you are not cos you are here!) please see the message...
time to wake up my friends, whatever religion you are, what is going on in DHARFUR is genocide..it just so happens to be a catholic one (today)..do you honestly think they care what brand of christanity you are when they are raping your wife/mother/sister, butchering your children and beheading the men?
the catholic /protestant thing -- this is the usual he said/she said/in 1400 they said crap. For gods sake...let it go and move on...
I am catholic and if the pope says something i dont agree with, i make a decision not to follow..its the benefit of a good upbringing and a brain. Havoc you have one, soothing you have one...time to start directing your brains on solving the problem...
the problem with a bad past is you have a bad past. Both religions have it. Nothing on this earth will change that-- except YOU deciding to change. what you can do is learn whats right and wrong and leave whatever prejudice you have and realise running protestants out of town with shotguns is OBVIOUSLY wrong and asking people here to answer for it is equally WRONG. we have 2000 years of history to pick and choose from..go pick the atrocity of your choice and i am sure you find an equal/worse one the opposite way...
didnt the bible say something about find and fix faults with yourself before you find it in others?
i am sure if your are sitting in the middle of a burnt village in Dharfur, they are looking for your help...protestant/catholc/jew/whatever -- i dont imagine they are too worried where it will come from..
You're a branch off Orthodoxy which is a branch off ? etc. You are a part of a picture surrounding Christianity, not the picture itself. Get over it. If a Bomb went off in St. Peter's I'd hope nobody was there or that nobody got hurt. Beyond that, St. Peters has no particular significance to me as a Christian.
Good post.
We here do tend to miss the forest for the trees.
Excuse me, sir, but see post 50. The goings on in Southamerica are recent - not from a few hundred years ago..
And it still goes on today as we speak. And Roman Catholics not only believe it is Rome's right to murder whomever they deam to be a heretic, they look upon any christian who doesn't bow to Rome as a heretic. Now, you tell me the difference. Rome calls Christians Heretics and has dogmatically pronounced death to them in church law and dogma. Islam calls Christians infidels and they do the same. But today, Islam is actually mixing action with belief and committing murder. Rome is just threatening it and running people off their own lands. So, Rome terrorizes people, etc; but, ain't killing anyone today that we know of. So a terrorist that only threatens is your kind of buddy.. is that the way we are to take it?
Rome could solve a lot of that nonsense; but, will not because Rome believes it's own press. I choose my friends wisely and have open eyes. I keep union in faith with catholics who embrace Christianity and not with those who embrace a form of it so saturated in men's traditions that they make God's word Voide with them. Christ said he who takes up the sword will die by it. Rome cursed Martin Luther for saying that murdering people in God's name was against the holy Spirit. If that mindset were not present among Romanists today, I'd say you have some valid point on this topic.
I understand you're attempting damage control. But I'd recommend damage control might be fixing problems with Rome rather than telling us to get the beam out of our eye. I'm not a protestant. I'm a Christian. I've had nothing to do with the crap of the past and want nothing to do with it. And while it's unfortunate, I'm not focusing on issues of the past - I'm specifically noting issues of the PRESENT.
If Rome wants to play victim, she'll need to do it before a deaf and blind audience in my case. I'll be convinced when the little boy stops crying wolf, changes his laws and stops abusing his neighbors. And that is non-negotiable.
I still love my Catholic Brothers and will continue trying to keep dialogue with them to the extent they feel they can let me do so as a heretic who must be hollared down as a bigot to save face when they look bad on any given subject; but,... There it is.
Miss the forest for the trees. You wanna see how bad you missed the forest. Ask ole Soothing Dave there what the definition of a heretic is. Then ask him if it is Rome's right to kill heretics. Dave's been backed into that corner many times and knows there ain't no way out of it.
I know your memory isn't bad, so I can only conclude that you suffer from delusions and remember them instead.
SD
Ah, so you're gonna make us pull teeth then? I know what Dave's personal opinion is. But I'm not talking about Dave's personal opinion. I'm talking about Rome's official on the record stance which has not changed since the time of the inquisition. Last chance.
I really don't want to have to go dig up documentation from other threads; but I can or you can just admit it and save all these folks the hassle of having to read a bunch of stuff to get to what you could just admit here and now.
What is Rome's definition of a heretic, (who would that include) and what is Romes official position on whether or not Putting heretics to death is the right of the church or civil authority as commanded by the church. Relevant documents would include the Bull issued to Luther, Lateran IV (canon 3 I believe), etc..
I am not talking about what Rome has done hundreds of years ago. I am talking about Rome's CURRENT policy: doctrine and law. It's congregants act in light of Roman policy - not in spite of it. Let's try to stay focused.
CURRENT policy: doctrine and law
CURRENT actions: not those of the past
No need to get weighed down in he said she said.
I am not talking about what Rome has done hundreds of years ago. I am talking about Rome's CURRENT policy: doctrine and law. It's congregants act in light of Roman policy - not in spite of it. Let's try to stay focused.
CURRENT policy: doctrine and law
CURRENT actions: not those of the past
No need to get weighed down in he said she said.
You mean the current policy and doctrine found in the recent Catechism:
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." 322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." 323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." 324
That doesn't sound to me like a call to slaughter those who do not share our beliefs. But I'm not an expert on Catholics like you are.
SD
It doesn't really say anything though, does it. Unum sactum is more clear than this because this statement is made in doubletalk for appeal through ecumenism to try and bring outsiders into the Roman fold. It doesn't address the fact that UNUM SANCTUM still stands, Lateran IV still stands, the teachings on heresy still stand, the canon law regarding heresy still stands.. You should know better than to pull that with me by now Dave.
Canon law was revised and codified in 1983. If you are aware of any passage mandating the killing of heretics, please provide it.
As for the rest, you misread whatever you want to into historical documents. A Papal Bull, even, addressing a given situation with a given set of heretics is not a general and for-all-time command that heretics must be killed.
Some people, like today's modern Islamic fanatics are members of a dangerous ideological group that threaten the existence of civilized society in the West.
If you think society has no right or obligation to protect itself from such dangerous ideologues, then say so.
Otherwise, try to place history in context.
SD
Right. In other words, you can't address the issue directly and with good reason. Council decisions and infallible pronouncements from Popes are irreformable. And with the advent of Vatican II, even pronouncements that are not infallible must be viewed with the same weight as an infallible pronouncement as it comes from the Pope.. Handy little things them official documents, ain't they.
Vatican II also re-affirmed Trent with it's pile of curses against "protestants" or Non-Roman Catholic "christians".
I'm sure you still don't want to define heresy for us and can't find where Rome overturned it's position on putting heretics to death. (No such document or statement exists).
Islam is a POLITICAL movement disguised as a religion.
You mean like explaining "exterminate in your territories" when the Pope is directing the civil authorities toward establishing the death penalty for heresy. Not surprisingly, after this council, the German monarch gave the Pope precisely what he demanded in council - the Constitution of lombardy: Death to heretics. Context jus sucks doesn't it.
Another item for the "you don't know what the hell you're talking about" file. Just simply made up and untrue.
Vatican II also re-affirmed Trent with it's pile of curses against "protestants" or Non-Roman Catholic "christians".
Anathemas are not curses. They are definitions of un-Catholic positions.
SD
331 // anayema // anathema // an-ath'-em-ah // from 394 ; TDNT - 1:354,57; n n AV - accursed 4, anathema 1, bind under a great curse + 332 1; 6 1) a thing set up or laid by in order to be kept 1a) specifically, an offering resulting from a vow, which after being consecrated to a god was hung upon the walls or columns of the temple, or put in some other conspicuous place 2) a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction 2a) a curse 2b) a man accursed, devoted to the direst of woesPrimary meaning - Accursed or bound under a great curse. Used once in the entire Bible and by Paul. Just a little trivia to go along with the fact lol. dictionary.com full definition listing Care to try again, or are we stretching the bounds of credulity hoping somebody is that dumb?
Of course there are limits. Of course there are ideas that bring destruction upon those who believe them. Don't be so naive and offended.
As I've said a thousand times, you Catholic-haters should wear our anathemas like a badge. If we're so wrong, and we say you are wrong, that makes you right, right?
In any event, none of this has anything to do with why you think the Church is out to kill everyone it disagrees with.
SD
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