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Ready to rumble? Village Voice Author, Rick Perlstein, Here to Debate the Freeper Horde
08/03/2004 | Rick Perlstein

Posted on 08/03/2004 12:09:31 PM PDT by dead

Opening Statement

Dear FRiends:

I once suffered two great frustrations in being a freelance political writer. First, the loneliness: you put an article out there, and you might as well have thrown it down a black hole for all the response you get. Second, the ghettoization: when you do get response, it would be from folks you agree with. Not fun for folks like me who reliish--no, crave and need--political argument.

Then came the Internet, the blogs--and: problem solved.

I have especially enjoyed having my articles in the Village Voice posted on Free Republic by "dead," and arguing about them here. The only frustration is that I never have enough time--and sometimes no time--to respond as the threads are going on. That is why I arranged for an entire afternoon--this afternoon--to argue on Free Republic. Check out my articles and have at me.

A little background: I am a proud leftist who specializes in writing about conservatives. I have always admired conservatives for their political idealism, acumen, stalwartness, and devotion. I have also admired some of their ideas--especially the commitment to distrusting grand social schemes, and the deep sense of the inherent flaws in human nature. (To my mind the best minds in the liberal tradition have encompassed these ideals, while still maintaining that robust social reform is still possible and desirable. My favorite example is the Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, author of the Serenity Prayer and a great liberal Democrat.)

Lately, however, I've become mad at the right, and have written about it with an anger not been present in my previous writings. It began with the ascension of George Bush, when I detected many conservatives beginning to care more about power than principles. The right began to seem less interesting to me--more whiny, more shallow--and, what's more, in what I saw as an uncritical devotion to President Bush, often in retreat from its best insights about human nature.

I made my strongest such claim in a Village Voice article two weeks ago in which I, after much thought, chose to say conservatism was "verging on becoming an un-American creed" for the widespread way conservatives are ignoring the lessons of James Madison's great insights in Federalist 51 that in America we are supposed to place our ultimate trust in laws, not men.

Finally, in what I see as the errors of the Iraq campaign, I recognize the worst aspects of arrogant left-wing utopianism: the idea that you can remake a whole society and region through sheer force of will. I think Iraq is a tragic disaster (though for the time being the country is probably better off than it was when Saddam was around--but only, I fear, for the time being).

I am also, by the way, a pretty strong critic of my own side, as can be seen in my latest Village Voice piece.

So: I'm yours for the day--until 7:10 pm CST, when I'm off to compete in my weekly trivia contest at the University of Chicago Pub. Until then: Are you ready to rumble?

Respectfully,
Rick Perlstein


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
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To: Perlstein

http://www.pipelinenews.org/index.cfm?page=mcelligott1%2Ehtm

The Clinton Administration And The Extradition Of bin-Laden - The True Story
By Janet McElligott

Washington, DC - PipeLineNews - Bill Clinton's "My Life" memoir is being hawked as part confessional and part policy tome. I had hoped that, at least as far as the historical reflections on terrorism and his eight-year presidency was concerned, it would at least be partly factual.

Instead, "My Life," which The New York Times described as, "sloppy, self- indulgent and eye-crossingly dull" is at odds with the record as it is developing. The book contradicts the findings of the Sept. 11 commission, Clinton's own prior admissions on a myriad of issues and, using my own knowledge of his administration's dealings - or lack thereof - with the Sudanese regarding Osama bin-Laden case.

I know the last point to be true because I witnessed it firsthand.

In 1996, I became what Vanity Fair magazine called in January 2002, the bin-Laden case's "accidental emissary," because I ended up in the position of shuttling between the FBI and representatives of the Sudanese intelligence service.

This was not a role I sought; rather, it all came about because I was in Sudan trying to arrange to bring its ancient treasures from the Meroe pyramids - known as the Gold of Queen Amanishakhete - to the United States for a public tour.

Queen Amanishakhete lived during Sudan's Kush period, in 4th century B.C. At the end of the 19th century, European explorers uncovered artifacts to what may be the world's most powerful matriarchal dynasties, which is what drew me to Sudan initially.

What kept me coming back was trying to stop Osama bin-Laden.

Gutbi el Mahdi, the chief of Sudanese intelligence, had placed bin-Laden and all his guests under close surveillance when they began developing close ties with known Egyptian terrorist groups.

Gutbi personally read every fax, phone transcript and daily report on activities where bin-Laden was concerned.

When the Clinton administration demanded that Sudan expel bin-Laden - which took place on May 18, 1996 - the Sudanese knew that a refusal to cooperate could have dire consequences. The demand for expulsion had first been raised in early 1996 by U.S. Ambassador Tim Carney, a respected career diplomat.

On Carney's last night in Sudan - Feb. 6, 1996 - he was invited to the home of Foreign Minister Ali Osman M. Taha, who asked Carney what could be done to dissuade the United States from its hard-line view on Sudan.

It was at this dinner that a substantive discussion between the two countries on terrorism occurred. This resulted in the Sudanese government beginning, for the first time, to consider handing Osama bin-Laden over to the U.S. authorities.

Seeking to pursue this option, the Sudanese sent their State Minister of Defense, Maj. Gen. Elfatih Erwa, to Washington in March 1996.

Erwa believed he could reason with the administration. At a hotel in Rosslyn, Va., just across the river from Georgetown, he participated in a meeting with David Shinn, chief of the State Department's Africa Desk, Carney and other U.S. government officials.

Unfortunately, they were not - as Erwa hoped - willing to listen. Instead, they handed him a memorandum dated March 8, 1996, that outlined a list of U.S. demands of the Sudanese.

Item No. 2 on the list was a demand for information about bin-Laden.

Intead, Erwa offered to hand bin-Laden to the United States on a silver platter - just as the Sudanese had done when the gave Carlos the Jackal to the French - but the representatives of the United States told Erwa the United States only wanted bin-Laden out of Sudan.

Clinton himself confirmed this on Feb. 15, 2002, while speaking in Woodbury, N.Y. Asked about terrorism, Clinton said: "We tried to be quite aggressive with (terrorists). We got -- uh -- well, Mr. bin-Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, and then he went to Sudan. And we'd been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again.

"They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have. But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan."

After the United States bombed Sudan's only pharmaceutical plant, El Shifa, in August of 1998 in response to the leveling of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania by al-Qaida, I flew to Khartoum with Dr. Bob Arnott, then the chief medical correspondent for NBC.

We landed in Khartoum with a German cameraman, an Egyptian soundman and plenty of questions for the Sudanese about Clinton's accusations that El Shifa was a chemical weapons facility with connections to bin-Laden.

We found that the United States had fired six cruise missiles at the El Shifra facility. One hit the administration building, one the loading dock, one the bottling plant, one the storeroom, one the hallway and one was a dud.

The plant was still burning when we arrived. Surveying the damage, Sudanese Interior Minister Abdul Rahim M. Hussein said to us: "It is amazing what America can do. I wish we could do this, we might be able to end our civil war, but we can't fight this. Mr. Clinton could kill every Sudanese and we could do nothing to stop him."

Days before the two U.S. embassies in Africa were destroyed, two men deplaned from Kenya Air Flight 322, traveling between Nairobi and Cairo, when it landed in Khartoum. Gutbi had the two men watched because they used the name of bin-Laden's former tannery manager as the reference on their visa applications.

Gutbi had them followed and, when they attempted to rent an apartment overlooking the empty U.S. Embassy in Khartoum, had them arrested.

During their interrogations, the Sudanese learned the men were Afghan Arabs traveling on illegal Pakistani passports who had just come from the Hilltop Hotel in Kenya, where the operatives who attacked the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi had stayed. The men were carrying lots of cash and their passports were full of stamps indicating they had been in and out of the world's major banking centers.

All the pieces fell into place, Gutbi told me later, after the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were demolished. He called me and said, "Tell your people we have something for them but they have to go to Khartoum to get it."

By "your people," he meant only one thing, the FBI.

I contacted an agent who, coincidentally enough, had been selected for the team being sent to Nairobi to investigate the embassy bombings. He said he would "run it up the flagpole." He wanted more details, specifically what I thought the message really meant. I could only tell him that the head of Sudanese intelligence didn't call me everyday. It had to be something "big," because Gutbi had risked a phone call.

In spite of the rather cryptic invitation, the FBI was eager to go to Khartoum, my agent contact said, because its objective was to follow every lead and bring the terrorists to justice.

The effort ground to a halt, however, when - unbelievably - the U.S. State Department refused to permit the FBI to travel to Khartoum.

It was not one of the United States' brighter moments.

FBI Director Louis Freeh was on the outs with the Clinton White House because he had pushed ahead with an investigation of campaign fundraising. No one in the administration was going to go out on a limb for the FBI.

Shortly after the request was denied, Secretary of State Madeline Albright declared, "We do not deal with terrorists," publicly referring the Sudanese who were, at that time, on the department's list of state terror sponsors.

Gutbi held onto the two al-Qaida members in his custody while others in the government would not let him engage in an attempt to hand them over to the United States directly. They remained in Sudanese custody until Sept. 4, 1998, when they were handed over to the ISI, the Pakistani intelligence service, at the Karachi airport.

Gutbi later found them - this time well out of reach - in bin-Laden's Afghan terrorist training camps.

The next time he and I met it was after I finished work in Kazakhstan. He told me about the embassy bombing suspects, showed me the files compiled during their interrogations, and let me examine a virtual treasure trove of other information in the hands of the Sudanese pertaining to al-Qaida.

"I can give these to the FBI," Gutbi told me referring to the information spread out before me, "if only they will talk to me."

"We don't trust the CIA. They are listening to liars and fabricators, but the FBI is based on law. We can deal with them. Go back to Washington and help us. I will give you something to convince them," he said.

As I left for the airport that night, an armed courier arrived at my hotel with an envelope. Inside was a six-page, handwritten note to FBI Director Louis Freeh detailing the movements of the two suspects they'd caught coming in from Nairobi. He told Freeh their names, movements, and much more -- information that could possibly get me killed if anyone else knew I had it in my possession.

I met with my "people," as the Sudanese continued to call them, at the FBI. They told me they again wanted to meet with the Sudanese. From January through May of 1999, I shuttled Washington, Khartoum and Cairo, trying to arrange the meeting.

In May - while in Khartoum putting the last pieces in place - I received word from the FBI that the State Department had stopped the meeting. What's more, the U.S. Department of the Treasury had previously issued a "cease and desist" order with my name on it, commanding that I cease all contact with the Sudanese government.

Additionally, Steven Schwartz, of the State Department's Sudan Desk, acting - I was told - on orders from above, threatened to have me arrested for "running around the world conducting personal diplomacy."

That summer I gave up. I'd been run ragged but no one seemed to believe me. Soon afterward Gutbi moved on to a different, more senior position within the Sudanese government, putting an end to the urgency of the whole thing.

I was advised to forget the whole thing and, until Sept. 11, 2001, I tried.

After the planes hit the towers, it all came racing back in one phone call from a staff aide working for the Bush National Security Council. Diligently - in my view – they were digging under every rock they could find for information about al-Qaida. They had reached out to me because, I thought, they wanted help getting the bin-Laden files that had several times been offered to but not accepted by the previous administration.

The aide had no idea what I was talking about when I said, "Finally, someone cares. So, do you want the bin-Laden files?" My name had only surfaced because of the Treasury Department's attempt to sanction me for dealing with the Sudanese government, not because of what those dealings had been about.

Incredibly, in my view, the information from the Clinton White House about the Sudanese offers of information about al-Qaida had not been passed along to the incoming Bush administration.

I told my story yet again to the Bush aide, who thanked me for my time and input. This time, however, the government acted - and swiftly.

Only minutes later, the phone rang again. This time it was Ambassador Robert Oakley, the head of the counter terrorism office inside the State Department. He introduced himself and said, "I understand you may be able to help us."

I said I would call the new head of the Sudanese intelligence service, Yahia Hussein Babiker, and attempt to persuade him to call Oakley, since official U.S. protocol prohibited Oakley from reach out to the Sudanese government.

Less than an hour after I hung up with Yahia , my phone rang again. It was Oakley. "I called to thank you," he told me. "I think we may be on the right track with this." Almost before I could say anything, my cell phone rang. It was Yahia, calling to tell me that he had done as I had asked.

Oakley laughed and said, "In my 40 years in government I don't think I've met anyone quite like you. I know I've never met anyone so efficient."

If only that were true. It had taken five years for me to get someone, anyone at the higher levels of the U.S. government to take the Sudanese offer of assistance seriously. And I know because, as I said at the beginning, I was there throughout the process. Even today I can't let go of the images of people trapped in the towers and wonder if I could have done more. Rightly or wrongly I carry with me the thought of "what if."

Clinton's book tells a different story, one that I do not recognize. And nowhere close to what I witnessed, firsthand, as a participant in the events as they occurred. I can only conclude that Clinton did not tell the American people the truth about what happened with the Sudanese -- he probably didn't tell the Bush administration the whole truth either. And I sincerely doubt he feels my pain.

(Janet McElligott is president of McElligott Associates, an international consulting company. She served on the staff of three members of the U.S. Senate and on the White House staff in the administration of George H.W. Bush. In 1997, she was a registered foreign agent for the Sudanese government and in 1998 for the government of Kazakhstan. She most recently served as spokeswoman for the Intergovernmental Governmental Agency for Development-sponsored Sudan Peace talks.)


381 posted on 08/03/2004 1:53:38 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hanoi Jane and Hanoi Kerry sitting in a tree F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: Perlstein
Couple more things, just FYI...

Ignore the insults. If you spend more time here, you get used to 'em. ;)

If you do decide to use any of this discussion for an article, you have permission to use my own typed words. I wouldn't have typed them if I didn't believe them.

Come back again.

382 posted on 08/03/2004 1:53:38 PM PDT by TheBigB (I'm more frustrated than a legless Ethiopian watching a doughnut roll down a hill.)
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To: Perlstein
Kerry strikes me as smart and competent and thoughtful.

Odd how two folks can have such divergent views of one man.

Kerry strikes me as a despicable sonuvabitch who stabbed our brothers in arms in the back for self aggrandizement.

Of course he was "smart", "competent" and "thoughtful" while doing it but I would think those attributes used in the manner Kerry used them should disqualify him from the White House.

Will you be going to the protest in DC on September 12th?

By the way, you're not very good at this. I don't particularly care for Bill Clinton but he could teach you a thing or two about obfuscation, strawman arguments and the many and diverse meanings of "is".

383 posted on 08/03/2004 1:53:45 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Perlstein
But Clinton, tho' certainly not my hero, slowed the growth of the federal government. Bush did not. So as to how much federal spending is wasteful, the question is more appropriately directed at Mr. Bush.

Whoa, there, Rick--the only (only!) portion of the Federal Gov that Clinton cut was the Defense Department and the armed forces.

Are you advocating cutting the military like Clinton? Now?!

384 posted on 08/03/2004 1:54:11 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (I shook my inner child until its eyes bled...)
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Comment #385 Removed by Moderator

To: TonyRo76; Perlstein
What's really funny is that he tries to use Madison to defend liberal judges in any way at all!

Madison was the penultimate strict constructionist ( and very aware of the danger of an unreverent citizenry).

386 posted on 08/03/2004 1:55:01 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: BSunday


chose to say conservatism was "verging on becoming an un-American creed" for the widespread way conservatives are ignoring the lessons of James Madison's great insights in Federalist 51 that in America we are supposed to place our ultimate trust in laws, not men.

It's actually the Democrats who want us to put our trust in men, not laws. For example, let's Get Bush Out (Dont trust that man, trust ours instead). And let's not forget the liberal desire to legislate through the courts (let's put our trust in these great liberal minds and ignore that old antiquated constitution thing.)

It's all fine and well to claim that someone's idea's are un-American but if results matter, it looks to me like the liberals are the one's who are un-American, what with voting to deny our troops what they need (Kerry), etc etc.
56 posted on 08/03/2004 12:28:08 PM PDT by BSunday (America is great, but not perfect)
------
Mr. Sunday's is the first ignorant post. The process whereby people argue to trust our man and not yours is called an "election." Part of the constitution, you know. The best example of the violation of Fed 51 coming out of the White House is the memos concerning Guantanamo that argue that the president has the power to abrogate treaties (he doesn't; or at least according to the, um, constitution).

RP


387 posted on 08/03/2004 1:55:03 PM PDT by Perlstein
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To: dead

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0408/schanberg.php

Your comments


388 posted on 08/03/2004 1:55:13 PM PDT by kabar
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To: Miss Marple
I have been reading this thread, and I have to believe that Perlstein is either the slowest typist in journalism or has a very slow connection. I am on dial-up and can respond far more quickly than he can.

Ricks computer is broadband connected, his brain is pony express.

389 posted on 08/03/2004 1:55:23 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
John Kerry put his finger in the wind and decided he had to be more left-wing than Howard Dean.

To do so, he had to stab the US Armed Forces in the back.

Again.

He's beneath contempt.

Someday, the Democrats may run an authentic, real person for President. They sure aren't this year.

390 posted on 08/03/2004 1:55:35 PM PDT by veronica (Hate-triotism, the religion of leftists, liberals, anti-semites, and other cranks...)
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To: Perlstein
Anger originates in fear and fear is most often caused by a loss of control.

And anger clouds your judgement, helping to perpetuate your loss of control.

391 posted on 08/03/2004 1:55:54 PM PDT by dirtboy (Forget Berger's socks - has ANYONE searched his skin folds for classified documents?)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Are you people just goofy, or what? He can't possibly read that entire article and respond. Stop posting huge globs of pasted text and ask him a direct question, for pete's sake!

Note to "dead": you should have arranged for a couple dozen people to dothis and keep the goofballs out.

392 posted on 08/03/2004 1:56:39 PM PDT by Taliesan (fiction police)
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To: veronica


A little background: I am a proud leftist...

How sad that a Jew would side with the anti-Israel, anti-semitic left, and brag about it.

A self-hater.
-----
I wonder how much Veronica knows about Israel--where the majority positions of Jewish citizens, in polls, fall far to the left of the majority positions of Americans, and where many on the religious right literally believe the State of Israel doesn't have a right to exist. And, not to put too fine a point on it, isn't it presumptuous to assume I'm a Jew?


393 posted on 08/03/2004 1:57:08 PM PDT by Perlstein
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To: Perlstein; barryallen
Barryallen, I promise this is off the record.

Rick, just so there are no misunderstandings, could you please give us your definition of what the meaning of "is" is?

394 posted on 08/03/2004 1:57:46 PM PDT by kevao
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To: Perlstein
Did you believe Bush when he said in 2000 that most of the money from his tax cut would go to the bottom half of the income distribution?

Since the bottom half of income distribution don't pay any income taxes I guess it would be hard to give them a tax cut. However, since the total tax burden of the richest 1% has grown since 2000 I find it hard to say the rich are paying less in taxes.

I have to go but just want to say I am glad you did this and truly hope to hear from you again. Thank you for your time
395 posted on 08/03/2004 1:58:13 PM PDT by Dr Snide (vis pacem, para bellum - Prepare for war if you want peace)
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To: alisasny



Dear Rick,

Todays Newsday has an article on what your fellow proud lefties plan to do to upset the RNC convention...

"Activists plan to hold sit-ins at delegate hotels, take over city intersections, block doors to major corporate offices, confront GOP bigwigs and infiltrate events when Republicans come to town for their political convention."

Do you really think this is going to help JFK?
-----
No. I look forward to reading the article, and, if I find it credible, do everything in my power to fight against this inanity.


396 posted on 08/03/2004 1:58:18 PM PDT by Perlstein
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To: Perlstein

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." --Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by: -- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by: -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." -- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." -- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" -- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

Mr. Perlstein,

When the above individuals tell the American public and families of American soldiers killed in Iraq that President Bush lied or misled about WMD's and our war in Iraq, has their ideology lost control?


397 posted on 08/03/2004 1:58:25 PM PDT by Quilla
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To: Taliesan

"Are you people just goofy, or what?"

Yes I am, so what?

Deal with it.

PS Check my FR Profile page


398 posted on 08/03/2004 1:58:54 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Hanoi Jane and Hanoi Kerry sitting in a tree F-R-E-N-C-H-I-N-G)
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To: dead
thinks for setting this up. I have to leave. Let me know if he is able to list an actual verifiable Bush lie. I have been waiting the entire time.
399 posted on 08/03/2004 1:59:10 PM PDT by KJacob (No military in the history of the world has fought so hard and so often for the freedom of others.)
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To: Perlstein

RE: Iraq Index

I would say that at worst it is a mixed bag. Some of the charts/graphs are based on what I would consider a small sample size. The good news, if one looks closely, is that over two-thirds support the Interim government, and 84% approve of the acting president.


400 posted on 08/03/2004 1:59:23 PM PDT by liberte
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