Democrats in Deep Prayer(In Florida, they're led by a certified atheist)

The American Spectator ^ | 8-3-04 | Larry Thornberry

[hope]

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Democrats in Deep Prayer

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Published 8/3/2004 12:08:00 AM

TAMPA -- If there's anything dopier than the idea of a Unitarian missionary, it's the idea of an atheist delivering an invocation. But that's what happened before the July 29 meeting of the Tampa City Council. The results resembled outtakes from a Marx Brothers movie. Nobody looked very good, least of all rookie Democratic councilman John Dingfelder, whose idea the whole thing was. Before council got down to the gray business of Tampa government, three council members had walked out, the atheist invoker had been gaveled down and declared out of order after he attempted to lecture the council on the constitutionality of having prayers at government meetings, and attorney Dingfelder had scolded that keeping an atheist from delivering the city council invocation was "censorship," providing further evidence that the bar exam is too easy. The usual suspects, including the Florida ACLU, showed up and hammed it up in the usual way. The local media weren't quite sure what to make of it. A newsreader with the local ABC affiliate referred to the invoker as "a devout atheist." ("The family that doesn't pray together, stays together"?) When it was done we had the answer to the obvious question --what on earth (or elsewhere) does an atheist invoke? Turns out it's "history," "science," and "diversity" (there's that word again) and "logic," and "compassion and tolerance." Oh. But, let's back up. IN TAMPA, CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS rotate picking members of the clergy to deliver the pre-meeting invocation, which often turns out to provide the most peaceful and coherent few minutes of council meetings. But just because things have worked fine for generations, that's no reason not to change. Not everyone was happy with the traditional way of doing things. Councilwoman Linda Saul-Sena, a liberal Democrat, said she's been offended by some of the invocations. Before the rotation system, the local ministerial association provided invokers, who, Saul-Sena complained, were always "white male Baptists." They weren't, but Saul-Sena isn't much on details. Saul-Sena probably has a point, though, that most of the prayers have been Christian, some even denominational. So some sensitivity on the part of prayer-givers was called for. But last Thursday's pre-meeting festivities were about as sensitive as a "Hee-Haw" re-run. Dingfelder, who had the invocation line-up card for July, decided to give the July 29 honors to a group called Atheists of Florida, because "city hall belongs to everybody -- I think we should be as inclusive as we can." Dingfelder's connection with the group is his neighbor and high school classmate, Ed Golly, current president of Atheists of Florida (a group of about 150 strong, Golly told me). Golly chose Michael Harvey -- a polite and presentable 35-ish software project manager to give what Golly is reasonably sure is the first atheist invocation at a government meeting in Florida. I talked with Harvey a few days before the event. He told me he would have a "soft" message that would not disrespect anyone's beliefs. He was mostly as good as his word on this part. He also said the remarks would be "non-political." But he apparently doesn't understand political any more than Dingfelder understands censorship. He got into trouble with, "When an invocation takes on the form of public prayer it is also a violation of the very principles upon which our country and constitution were founded….we are dismayed that the practice of public prayer by governing bodies charged with representing all citizens still continues in violation of the Constitution." At this point council chairman Shawn Harrison gaveled down the constitutional law lecture, though he finally allowed Harvey to finish his statement, a statement that even Dingfelder later conceded was political. Council members Rose Ferlita, Kevin White, and Mary Alvarez missed this piece of political theater, having already cleared the room rather than listen to an atheist deliver an invocation. DINGFELDER SAYS HE'S a firm believer in separation of church and state, and has been "offended by the extremely religious nature of the invocations that come before us." Well, duh. The invocation is a religious form. It's a recognition of God and a request for God's presence, blessing, leadership, and wisdom on whatever endeavor is taking place. Folks who don't want God mixed in with their government can (and have) argued that prayer should be banished from government meetings. A least this is a more coherent point of view than having atheists, and God knows what other secular groups ("Tonight's invocation is from a spokesman for 'Florida Eats More Oysters'"), moving in on religious forms that make no sense when God is not included. By the by, no one is trying to stop the Florida Atheists – or anyone else -- from making their points. There's a public comment section in every Tampa City Council meeting, and groups far flakier than the Florida Atheists regularly take full advantage of it.. Dingfelder told me his political adviser said this would not be a good idea. I guess I misspoke earlier on. At least one person does look good in all of this. Maybe Dingfelder should listen to good advice when he gets it. Larry Thornberry is a writer living in Tampa.

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[Grampa Dave]

Thanks, hope!

Southack, here you go again.

[Southack]

I dunno, Gramps... the DNC's new national religous "outreach" director who wants to ban "under God" from our money still takes the cake for this Summer's bonehead Democratic Party moves...

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

[Grampa Dave]

Just more proof of the non believers and how they have infested various religions around America.

[KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle]

Councilwoman Linda Saul-Sena, a liberal Democrat, said she's been offended by some of the invocations. Before the rotation system, the local ministerial association provided invokers, who, Saul-Sena complained, were always "white male Baptists."

A sad, sad commentary on the Florida educational system -- liberal Democrat moonbat Linda Saul-Sena:

[JFC]

Just wondering does God Hear an antheist's prayer?

[AppyPappy]

Another Athiest hypocrite demanding to lead the prayer before a meeting because he belives it shouldn't be done.

[KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle]

I talked with Harvey a few days before the event. He said the remarks would be "non-political." But he apparently doesn't understand political any more than Dingfelder understands censorship. [...] Harvey [was allowed to] to finish his statement, a statement that even Dingfelder later conceded was political.

He came... he saw... he lied. Never, EVER loan this man money ; the male Linda Ronstadt -- Michael Harvey:

[Mackey]

Maybe it's just me, but check out this guy's facial features, especially the brow ridge. Remind you of any extinct sub-species of Homo Sapiens?

[weegee]

Evolution Threads BUMP!???

[Hat-Trick]

I'm sure God does hear the prayer of an atheist, even though it isn't addressed to Him. Just who DOES an atheist pray to, exactly?

[OldPossum]

I think the genes from a subset of cavemen that were able to survive the domination of Homo Sapiens are still with us. One time on a commuter bus I saw some guy who had extremely thick black hair (fur?) poking out from the area of his wrists; he was wearing a long-sleeve shirt.

And you still see people with the sloping forehead and smallish eyes.

Yep, they're still with us, alright.

[MineralMan]

" Just who DOES an atheist pray to, exactly?
"

Atheists don't pray at all. Prayer is some sort of supplication to some sort of deity. Since atheists do not believe that any such deities exist, they simply would not engage in prayer.

OTOH, I have been asked to make remarks at public meetings during the time when a religious invocation would normally take place. I do this, if asked, by calling on those I am addressing to think carefully about the decisions they make, since they affect many. I address the body that asked me to address them, not some deity.

Same thing if I am asked to offer some sort of table grace. I simply thank those who produced the food on the table and those who supplied it for the meal at hand.

I've never had any objection from anyone on these occasions.