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Jamming for Jesus
Jerusalem Post ^ | July 29th, 2004 | Jenny Hazan

Posted on 08/02/2004 5:12:15 PM PDT by missyme

Though officially illegal, the capital's last Messianic Youth Ministry continues to recruit local Jewish teens

When Jerusalem-born Daniel Cohen was 15-years-old, he wanted to become a professional drummer. So when a friend told him about free drum lessons at The Jamm he went straight to the Russian Compound to check it out.

"At first, the people at The Jamm were really nice to me. They even started to teach me how to play the drums," says Cohen.

After two months of hanging out at the coffee bar/youth center, one of Cohen's newfound friends gave him a copy of the New Testament in Hebrew and began to initiate discussions on the subject of Christ. An additional two months passed before Cohen was invited to participate in a youth trip to the Sea of Galilee, where he could join other Jamm youth in a mikveh ceremony.

"He asked me if I knew what Baptism is," recalls Cohen, who is now 17. "He said it wasn't a Christian thing, but a Jewish thing for Jews who knew the 'right way.'"

"I was shocked," he continues. "I was born a Jew and I want to be a Jew and I am not interested in converting away from Judaism. It is horrible when you think you have friends and then you find out that they are actually your enemies."

Cohen isn't alone. The Jamm (Jerusalem Artists, Musicians and Media) Center has been trapping Jewish teens in its messianic web since it was established in 1998. With open mike nights on Wednesdays and Punk concerts on Thursdays, including free coffee, chai tea and snacks, the non-smoking, alcohol-free Jamm provides a clean and tempting atmosphere for Jerusalem youth.

In one of the organization's pamphlets, The Jamm describes itself as "the first and only Israeli Messianic Youth ministry center of its kind in Israel," the main goal of which is "to serve as a safe place for young people to find out about the mercies of the true and living God."

According to Aaron Rubin at Yad L'Achim (Hands to Our Brothers), a Jerusalem-based organization dedicated to helping Jewish brethren escape from the clutches of cults and missionaries, The Jamm is among 100 so-called Messianic Jewish movements across Israel, 20 congregations of which are headquartered in Jerusalem.

Rubin lists the Baptists, the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada (PAOC) and Caspari near Ben Yehuda Street, where Christians from Norway offer literature and courses to augment the effectiveness of English, Russian, Hebrew and French-speaking missionaries, among the larger missionary communities in the capital city.

Although he estimates the total number of missionaries currently operating in the country at around 4,000, Rubin says their numbers have increased by 100 percent over the past decade and that they continue to grow at an even more rapid pace today.

"The number of congregations are growing," says Rubin, who attributes the boom to several factors: the successful conversion to Christianity of new immigrants from the Former Soviet Union and Ethiopia; an increased number of dissidents who reject the theology of their church in favor of establishing their own individually-run institutions; the circumvention of the Law of Return, which according to a Supreme Court ruling in September 1992 stipulates that "openly-professed belief in Jesus is enough to render a born-Jew a member of another religion and thereby not eligible under Israel's immigration law for automatic citizenship in the Jewish State"; and a general expansion of messianic activity.

Messianic Jews share a belief in the idea that Judaism is the source of Christianity. The New Testament (so-called New Covenant) represents a unified extension of the Old Testament. Main tenets include regarding God as a compound unity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and belief in Jesus' virgin birth, sinless life, atoning death, bodily resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God the Father. They await the personal, bodily return of Jesus and believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost - the former to everlasting life, the latter to everlasting judgment and condemnation. It is in this Christian philosophy that the objective of conversion and "soul-saving" originates.

According to Rubin, the most common point of confusion for Jews who are approached by Messianic Jews is their self-definition as Jews. "They say they are Jews, not Christians and that their beliefs have nothing to do with Christianity."

This approach is deceptive, explains Rubin, since one-quarter of Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel are led by Christian-educated leaders.

In addition to their deceiving self-description, initial methods to entice new congregants usually include putting up posters and websites and going to festivals and public places to distribute pamphlets and books bearing Jewish symbols.

The difference between The Jamm and other organizations of its kind is that currently, it is the only active missionary body whose target audience are minors.

"Some movements send their children to speak with Jewish children because it's more delicate," says Rubin, "but most Jewish missionaries try to stay away from kids because it is illegal."

Article 368 of the Israeli Penal Code awards a maximum six-month incarceration for attempting to convert minors under the age of 18. Article 174(A) prohibits the offering and receiving of material benefits as an inducement to conversion of anyone, including those above and below the age of 18. Anyone who gives material benefits in exchange for a commitment to change one's religion can be sentenced up to 5 years in prison and fined a maximum of NIS 50,000.

According to Yoram Sheftel, a Ramat Gan-based criminal lawyer who volunteers on behalf of Yad L'Achim, the problem is that both the prosecution and the law enforcement authorities do not enforce the law.

"They rarely enforce the laws pertaining to missionary crimes," says Sheftel, who estimates that only one or two cases are actually brought to court every year.

No legal precedent exists because both crimes are dealt with at the lowest level, the Magistrate's Court, with appeals going to the District Court.

"There is no practical chance that a case like this would make it to the Supreme Court," adds Sheftel, who in 2000 drafted a bill that to date has neither been accepted nor rejected by the Knesset, which would make any attempt to persuade anyone to change his religion an offense against the law. "As it stands, the issue is not a priority in the eyes of the Jerusalem Police and the prosecution. These cases, therefore, are generally neither investigated nor prosecuted."

Rivka Cohen, Daniel's mother, who conditioned her interview on the changing of both her and her son's names, testifies to that fact.

Once she found out what was really going on at The Jamm in April 2003, she filed a report with the Jerusalem Police, who closed the case about a month later. They reopened the file in December 2003 after she filed a letter of complaint to the minister of justice.

"I have not heard anything about it since the case was reopened eight months ago," says Rivka. "From the very beginning, the police didn't want to take me seriously."

Besides the testimony of her son and the publications he was given at The Jamm that included a copy of the New Testament, a workbook about Jesus, a CD with Christian songs and a copy of the coffee house's publication 'Youth Speak ' a collection of personal stories by Israeli youth who became 'believers' in the Messianic movement, her report consisted of a video depicting incriminating discussions between Jamm members, shot by 18-year-old Yossi Levinson, a volunteer for Yad L'Achim who went undercover to investigate the place.

"It was disgusting. The place is dedicated to making Israeli youth believe in Yeshua," says Levinson, who disguised himself as a believer looking to make a video for fundraising purposes in America, in order to unveil the true philosophy behind The Jamm. "It's not maybe yes, maybe no. It's black and white. The best thing a believer can do is to make a non-believer believe in Christ. It's an even bigger 'mitzvah' if they convert a Jew."

Levinson reveals that two days after he handed the video over to the Jerusalem Police, he got a call from friends at The Jamm inquiring how the video got into the wrong hands. "I was shocked. Until now, I don't know how they found out about the video so quickly."

The police didn't call him in for questioning until three weeks later. At the same time, Richard Ayal Frieden, owner of The Jamm, was approached by police immediately.

Frieden is proud to define himself as a Jewish believer in Yeshua, but denies that the purpose of his establishment is to convert Israeli youth.

"The Jamm," says Frieden, a former narcotics detective at the Jerusalem precinct who left his job in 1994, "is a non-profit organization that exists to promote local arts and to encourage youth and young adults in their respective musical talents. There is nothing illegal going on at The Jamm. We are not actively proselytizing young people."

"There is a witch-hunt going on," continues Frieden who, in addition to The Jamm, runs an annual week-long music camp for messianic kids and oversees the Jamm Academy of Arts, which holds after-school fine arts, multimedia and computer graphics classes taught by believing professionals and Heart Rock TV (HRTV), which produces TVY2, a 30-minute Hebrew music video program for central public access channel Tevel (Arutz Mekomi Merkaz), national public access channel 25 (Arutz Zahav Artzi), Matav Digitali and Yes 90 (Artzi Arutz Hapatuach).

"If I've committed a crime in sharing the love of God through the good work that we are doing at the Jamm," says Frieden, "then put me on the stand."

On the HRTV website, Frieden writes: "The youth of Israel are key to the future of Israel and to the expansion of the indigenous body of believers. Many Israeli youth are walking in darkness. We are here to inform them of 'the one whom they have not believed ' and introduce them to 'the one whom they have not heard' (Romans 10:14)."

Frieden explains that The Jamm holds one faith-based worship service per week, meant exclusively for members of the Jerusalem Youth Cell Group. "Each person under the age of 18 who comes on Monday night needs permission from their parents."

Minors, claims Frieden, are given a waiver that clearly indicates what the service is about, for parents to sign. "This is something that we're quite strict about."

Shmulik Ben-Rubi, spokesman for the Jerusalem Police, concurs. "We have talked to both kids and their parents and we have found that parents allow their kids to be in this place."

Ben-Rubi notes that the investigation surrounding The Jam is still open. "If we find any sign of conversion, we will act according to the law. But as far as we know, they are not trying to convert kids."

The police might have missed Cohen, who says he was invited to a worship night without being given a waiver. "I was never asked to have my parents sign a permission form. I just came on a Thursday night and they invited me to come on Monday. They invite all the people who come on Thursday to the prayer meeting. That's how I got there. I wouldn't have known about it otherwise."

According to Cohen, believer meetings are the prime time for circulating missionary literature.

"I personally don't hand out anything," says K., a 28-year-old Jamm volunteer from Germany. "I cannot hide what I believe in, but I would never force it on anybody or give someone a pamphlet."

Cohen has a different version. "They gave me workbooks and the New Testament and said that Jesus gave his life for us and we need to give our lives to Him."

Cohen, whose parents divorced a couple of years before he started spending time at The Jamm, realizes in retrospect that he was the perfect candidate for missionary activity. "It was a very rough time in my life. I needed friends and the people at The Jamm were nice. They listened and talked to me."

The believers, he says, also offered him a place to stay at their shared boys' house. "They go to the weak people and they try to take them in."

Rubin says that Cohen's assessment is accurate. "It is very difficult to change the mind of someone who doesn't have any problems in his life. That's why they are going to lonely people or people with financial or family problems. There are a lot of people out there who are in trouble and these missionaries give them hope."

Levinson asserts that awarding hope is The Jamm's most cherished technique.

"They act nice to people who don't have someone who will listen to them at home, or who don't have a nice home," he says. "The Jamm is a nice, warm place for people who don't have a nice, warm place to go."

Rubin claims that the current economic crisis in Israel and in the capital in particular, provides the missionaries with more opportunities than usual, since many Israelis are particularly needy at this time.

"It's a business," says Rubin and emphasizes that all of the messianic congregations in Israel receive money from Christian churches abroad to help them conduct their activities. "When they are speaking with Jews, they are Jews. When they try to get money from Christians, they are Christians. Basically, they are liars."

The Jamm fits the mold. Not only does the organization have affiliates in both Franklin, Tennessee and the Netherlands, it is sponsored in part by Gratefully Grafted Ministries International, headquartered in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, which offers financial support to some 40 messianic ministries in Israel, including congregations, worship centers and "outreach programs" like The Jamm.

Says Rubin, "The Jamm aims to target youth in the street and they don't have a problem getting the money to do it from abroad."

"The Jamm is a Christian fundamentalist group and nothing more than that," adds Binyamin Kluger, head of advocacy for the anti-missionary department at Yad L'Achim.

"Why are Israeli authorities doing nothing to stop them?" asks Rivka. "I just don't understand. If the law clearly says that what they are doing is wrong, why isn't anything being done about it?

"I just try to imagine what would happen if a couple of religious Jews started trying to convert Christian boys to stop believing in Yeshua. I'm sure it wouldn't hold for one week."

She then offers one reason the Israeli justice system has neglected to deal with the issue. "Perhaps Christians in America have a very big influence here, but unless we are willing to sacrifice our own Jewish kids for the donations and tourism money of Christians, our first obligation is to protect our own youth."

A letter written by then-Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in which he expressed his disagreemet with the 1997 Proposed Bill on the Prohibition of Inducement for Religious Conversion, supports Cohen's suggestion.

"It has come to my attention that a bill before the Israeli parliament concerning possession of missionary literature has created a stir among our many Christian friends," wrote Netanyahu in response to the private member bill proposed by then-Labor Party opposition member Nissim Zvilli and Rabbi Moshe Gafni of the Yahadut HaTorah Party, which would have made the printing, distribution and possession of missionary material a crime punishable by up to one year in prison. "I would like to assure you that this bill does not have the support of the Israeli government...the government strenuously objects to this bill and will act to ensure that it does not pass. Israel deeply values your support, and we appreciate your friendship and commitment."

The reason for the legal authorities' lack of action against missionary organizations remains obscure. In the meantime, The Jamm, which has a link on the Jerusalem Municipality website, has plans to expand its horizons to include an indoor skateboarding park on Ben Yehuda Street, a project their pamphlet describes as "a [potential] harvest field for the Lord."

"There are few cases that are as black and white as The Jamm," says Rubin. "The case is very clear. Why aren't they being properly investigated or prosecuted? It's a very good question."


TOPICS: Israel; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: messianicjews
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: SJackson

Dennis Siluk? That doesn't even remotely look like a thread you would post...

How come you didn't reply to my post on Hogzilla?


541 posted on 08/04/2004 7:47:18 PM PDT by missyme
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To: safisoft

"It pleases the lord to bruise Israel?"

That sounds awful...GOD would punish Israel and let them be lead to the slaughter because of dis-obedience? your saying some trad that passage that way?


542 posted on 08/04/2004 7:57:51 PM PDT by missyme
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To: followerofchrist

Sorry, fc, I wish I could help you.

I've never studied Lilith. I did a google search, and found four references, but they seem ambiguous and very brief.


543 posted on 08/04/2004 8:11:48 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: BlackVeil

Looks interesting and learned, but I am not aware that Raphael Patai is a religious Jew, so his analysis may not be a mainstream religious Jewish analysis. Probably Robert Graves, the poet who studies Greek and Roman mythology, takes a sociological/literary, rather than Jewish religious didactic, approach.


544 posted on 08/04/2004 8:16:39 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: followerofchrist

Thank you for the kind words.

I do think that when people are here to have open discussions, there are benefits for the posters as well as for the lurkers.

On the other hand, when someone pursues an agenda relentlessly, it makes others put their guard up or get angry and/or insulting. When this happens, it diminishes the value of the thread overall.


545 posted on 08/04/2004 8:20:56 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: missyme
That sounds awful...GOD would punish Israel and let them be lead to the slaughter because of dis-obedience? your saying some trad that passage that way?

Get over it! Read the Bible. God did rain down punishments on Israel the whole time. And there was always some reason why they deserved it.

An alternative reading is that God is going to punish His son and let him be led to the slaughter because of Israel's disobedience. Even more awful.

546 posted on 08/04/2004 8:21:49 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: Piranha; followerofchrist

On Lilith, that site seems to be a study of folklore, rather than a religious picture.

Lilith seems to be more firmly believed in by Oriental Jews, the more superstitious of whom fear her as a demon. Lilith is also an inspirational figure for Jewish feminists (speaking of demons ... ) who laud her as the original independent woman.


547 posted on 08/04/2004 8:24:31 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: Bella_Bru
"When you go after kids, you are indeed attempting to kidnap them away from their parents culture and beliefs."

The Jamm does not "go after" "kids". They operate an open forum while actively and systematically excluding minors who cannot produce written parental authorization.

I've been busy, sorry it took me so long to reply.

548 posted on 08/04/2004 8:41:52 PM PDT by cookcounty ("NIXON sent me to Vietnam!!!" --JfK, lying about his 1968 arrival in-country UNDER PRESIDENT LBJ.)
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To: BlackVeil

Fascinating web site. I'd like to hear from an Orthodox Jew what the Talmud says about Lilith and the claim she was the first woman. It mentioned circumcision was a way to protect baby boys from her. I didn't read that in the bible, and understand circumcision to be a covenant between God and the Israelites.


549 posted on 08/04/2004 8:51:37 PM PDT by followerofchrist
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To: SJackson
"Does your wife evangelize children of other faiths?

If your target tells you he's not interested (or Reverend Brickner's suggestion, drop dead, imo a bit harsh for the first meeting), how long does she persist?

"If she doesn't evanglize minors and takes 'no' for an answer, your comments don't relate to the objections raised on the thread.

I was speaking in the context of criticism of the Jamm, which does not "evangelize" youths who don't have a signed permission slip from their parents, and does not "Pursue" anbody. No one is required to visit the Jamm. It is a voluntary choice. By adults.

550 posted on 08/04/2004 8:54:13 PM PDT by cookcounty ("NIXON sent me to Vietnam!!!" --JfK, lying about his 1968 arrival in-country UNDER PRESIDENT LBJ.)
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To: BlackVeil

I re-read the part about circumcision, and I was wrong about a myth that it was started to protect infant boys. I am too tired tonight. It said circumcision protected the boys from her and that other means were employed before that time. Nevermind that question. I am curious about how Orthodox Jews see her, and if it is Hebrew myth or oral tradition. Also, the Lillith in the Kabbala is something I'd like to learn about. I ask here because I don't want to go to the wrong source.


551 posted on 08/04/2004 9:05:18 PM PDT by followerofchrist
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To: Piranha
"Those are the people whom cookcounty wrote about above. As cookcounty wrote, a few Lubavitch Hassidim approached him while he was in Israel in order to encourage him to engage in a particular Jewish observance. When they found out that he is not Jewish, they turned on their heels since -- as I wrote above -- Jews do not proselytize people of other faiths."

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my point. I was emphasizing that the Lubavitchers in that case were the most aggressive religious folk that I have ever come across in my 56 years of association with variious evangelistic christian groups. I have heard all the stories about forced baptisms and kidnappings, etc., but I have to tell you I have never personally seen such tactics. I'm sure (especially in less gentle times) those things occurred. But I just haven't seen it.  

552 posted on 08/04/2004 9:08:11 PM PDT by cookcounty ("NIXON sent me to Vietnam!!!" --JfK, lying about his 1968 arrival in-country UNDER PRESIDENT LBJ.)
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To: malakhi; safisoft; BlackVeil; Piranha; cyborg

I have been reading the answers of Jews for Judaism in regards to the Suffering Servant, a couple of things:

They state that Jesus was and did violence because he over-turned the tables in the Temple and he led a herd of swine
to drown? and he did not allow a fig tree to bloom?
Is this violence? by the meaning or standards of Man or GOD?

Also they say Jesus operated in secret? again secret because GOD had given him a plan to do and complete doesn't GOD operate that way? he did not allow a group of people to see him give Moses the Ten Commandments and the people did not know when Moses was returning? so did GOD act in secret?
I understand the Rabbi is making his points regarding the Suffering Servant I am just not sure if it is coming from a point of view of human thinking or GOD's thinking since none of us really understand how GOD's plan for the world? I didn't think we were suppose to?

Jesus, as the all-knowing god-man, knew very well that the disciples did not understand everything he told them (Mark 9:32; Luke 9:45, 18:34). Jesus said and did things secretively so that the multitudes should not understand him.

As a result, Jesus often misled the people who heard him into believing things, which were completely opposite to what he really meant. Jesus, speaking in a deceitful manner had declared: "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19). The people were led to believe that he meant the Temple in Jerusalem when he actually spoke of the temple of his body" (John 2:21). Jesus' own secret meaning was hidden from those to whom he spoke. His audience did not infer that Jesus meant anything other than the Jerusalem Temple. This supposed allusion to the resurrection contains another deception by Jesus.

The Synoptic Gospel resurrection accounts allege that God raised Jesus from the dead (Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6) whereas John's Jesus says, referring to his body, "I will raise it up." The Synoptic Gospels are referring to God the Father as the one who allegedly raised Jesus from the dead, the latter having no active role in his own supposed resurrection. On the contrary, John's Jesus claims he will resurrect himself. According to John 18:36, Jesus said to Pilate: "If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews." He implies that his followers knew his kingdom was not of this world and would not use violence. The truth is that they expected Jesus to restore the kingdom of Israel in a terrestrial sense. Even after his death Jesus' followers looked forward to a speedy return which would usher in the overthrow of the Roman Empire: "Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom of Israel" {Acts 1:6).

Moreover, just a few hours before his meeting Pilate, Jesus had ordered the disciples to buy swords if they had none (Luke 22:36), and the disciples responded by saying that two swords were available (Luke 22:36). Soon after this, Peter cut off the ear of Malchus, the servant of the high priest, who came to seize Jesus (Matthew 26:51, Mark 14:47, Luke 22:50, John 18:10). Obviously, contrary to Jesus' statement that "these know what I said" (John 18:21 ), Peter did not know that since the kingdom was not of this world he should not fight (John 18:36). Jesus knew, at his trial, that Peter had used violence. Nevertheless, he lied and said that his followers would not feel the necessity of acting violently since his kingdom was not of this world.

Jesus knew very well that his followers did not understand him and that they would, indeed, use violence. Yet he persisted in his lie, saying: "I spoke nothing in secret." If he spoke openly we should at least expect his disciples to have known the meaning of his words. Shortly after undertaking his messianic role, Jesus is quoted as having predicted that success would follow within a short period of time: "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the son of Man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:26). Jesus' disciples must have accepted this statement at face value and thus mistakenly believed his false assurance that the messianic kingdom was about to be established. When Jesus assured his disciples that the end of the world order and his own triumphant return to judge all men would occur before the generation then living had passed away (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 Luke 21:32), he used deceit, for he knew that this was not true. In the alleged postresurrection era he still is quoted as promising a return in the near future, with its accompanying rewards (Revelation 22:7, 12, 20).


553 posted on 08/04/2004 9:13:07 PM PDT by missyme
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To: Bella_Bru

"BTW, do you support people proselytizing to children? Then you won't be to pissed if your local Muslim mosque pays a visit to your kids, right?"

No, I support "hindering not the little children" from hearing the word of God. "Proseltyzing" is one of those dubious terms like "Anti-choice" that man only what destructive people twist them into.

"Oh, not going to admit you are a re-tread either"

Not sure what that means, but I assume it implies there are a lot of other posters you've embarrassed yourself in front of in the past.


554 posted on 08/05/2004 5:53:11 AM PDT by Kerfuffle (Support your missionaries in the Middle East!)
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To: SJackson

You certainly didn't say that in 481, Stonewall... you said it in 341, Specifically, you wrote:

"From that you’re I’ve struck fear into you for advocating the jailing of evangelists in Israel, an extremist personal attack?"

Yes it IS an extremist personal attack. From what I can see, you've come late to this thread with personal insults, attacks and provable lies against a sincere (albeit new) poster. Does this mean that long-time posters are free to ignore the the "personal attack" prohibition?
Please stop wishing death on the Christians who seek to give you Life, and stop serving as a self-appointed troll and disrupter. You and the other "Jews for Judiasm" in this thread have given the people who hate Free Republic a rich store of scare quotes to use against it. God loves you, Jesus loves you, and here's hoping you'll find something more constructive to do with your time.
God's Peace,
Kerfuffle


555 posted on 08/05/2004 6:17:12 AM PDT by Kerfuffle (Support your missionaries in the Middle East!)
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To: followerofchrist

Okay then I have misunderstood you welcome to FR.


556 posted on 08/05/2004 6:24:38 AM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: missyme
The link I gave you provides a Jewish viewpoint on Isaiah 53. I didn't expect you to agree with it, and you are entitled to form your own understanding. But since this link presents a Jewish interpretation, of course it is going to differ from what you believe. I offered the link as a source of information, not as a springboard to a debate on whose interpretation is "right".
557 posted on 08/05/2004 6:25:07 AM PDT by malakhi (There is no problem so bad that it can't be made worse by government intervention.)
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To: Kerfuffle; Bella_Bru
"BTW, do you support people proselytizing to children? Then you won't be to pissed if your local Muslim mosque pays a visit to your kids, right?"

No, I support "hindering not the little children" from hearing the word of God.

You see, Bella, since Christianity has "the word of God", and everybody else is wrong, Christians must be specially privileged to proclaim "the Truth" to all and sundry, even minor children.

Shades of the old Catholic teaching, "heresy has no rights". This is the same mindset that resulted in medieval Jews being forced to attend and listen to Christian sermons. "For their own good", of course.

"Proseltyzing" is one of those dubious terms like "Anti-choice" that man only what destructive people twist them into.

BS. It means to persuade, or to attempt to persuade, someone to convert to your faith. If it has a negative connotation, it is because those who engage in it sometimes fail to take "no" for an answer. If the Jehovah's Witnesses show up at your door, that's proselytizing. If they show up weekly, even though you've told them you aren't interested, their actions become annoying, and you may begin to have a negative view of proselytizers.

558 posted on 08/05/2004 6:37:11 AM PDT by malakhi (There is no problem so bad that it can't be made worse by government intervention.)
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To: cookcounty
I was speaking in the context of criticism of the Jamm, which does not "evangelize" youths who don't have a signed permission slip from their parents, and does not "Pursue" anbody. No one is required to visit the Jamm. It is a voluntary choice. By adults.

The law aside, presuming the evangelical nature of the Jamm is clear, that would seem to solve the ethical dilemma. If it’s permission for the club, with it’s evangelical nature concealed (and I’ve no reason to think that’s the case), it’s back to square 1.

Unrelated to the article, I understand they work with street kids as well, which is a separate issue.

559 posted on 08/05/2004 7:18:03 AM PDT by SJackson (My opponent has good intentions, but intentions do not always translate to results, GWB)
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To: Kerfuffle; Admin Moderator
You certainly didn't say that in 481, Stonewall... you said it in 341, Specifically, you wrote:..."From that you’re I’ve struck fear into you for advocating the jailing of evangelists in Israel, an extremist personal attack?" ... Yes it IS an extremist personal attack. From what I can see, you've come late to this thread with personal insults, attacks and provable lies against a sincere (albeit new) poster. Does this mean that long-time posters are free to ignore the the "personal attack" prohibition? Please stop wishing death on the Christians who seek to give you Life, and stop serving as a self-appointed troll and disrupter. You and the other "Jews for Judiasm" in this thread have given the people who hate Free Republic a rich store of scare quotes to use against it. God loves you, Jesus loves you, and here's hoping you'll find something more constructive to do with your time. God's Peace, Kerfuffle

New poster or returnee, you’re a liar.

I’ve never advocated jailing Christian evangelicals, in Israel or anywhere else. I’ve asked you for citations, you’ve failed.

I’ve never wished death on Christians, those who wish to “save me” or others. That’s a new charge, a despicable charge.

Since you seem to be contending that the Jews on Free Republic and my “attacks” on you are damaging the site I’ll ping the AM to the post. If he agrees, I’m sure he’ll ban me.

Beyond that, save the bandwith posting to me, you have zero credibility and you’re right, your fabrications are a rich source of potential animosity toward conservatives.

560 posted on 08/05/2004 7:26:07 AM PDT by SJackson (My opponent has good intentions, but intentions do not always translate to results, GWB)
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