Jamming for Jesus

Jerusalem Post ^ | July 29th, 2004 | Jenny Hazan

[Piranha]

I think that we have defined the issues pretty well and I don't see how this conversation can enlighten further, or persuade, either of us.

I believe that every man has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, so long as he does not impinge upon the rights of others.

You look at the world through the binary filter of damned and saved. You believe that you have a duty to stick your foot in my door and convert me, my children and my people to your religious beliefs whether we want that or not.

These are irreconcilable differences. To those of us who believe in living a moral life and respecting others, your type is insufferable. Good luck to you.

[anotherview]

Actaully, I do agree with you 100%. Evangelical Christians have been welcome in Israel because the overwhelming majority do NOT prostletyze when they are here. As such, they will continue to be welcomed and, indeed, encouraged to visit and explore their Christian roots.

Evangelical Christians who see the need to prostletyze in Israel are a small minority, but they seem to be the majority on this thread and perhaps on Free Republic. That subset of evangelical Christians is distincly unwelcome.

[missyme]

If you don't think I am a friend that's your business, if you want to compare Jesus's teachings to the cult of ISLAM then that's your cross to bear in life. You will never be able to take away Jesus from the Jewish people NEVER you can guarantee that fight will be one you will definetly loose. IN fact your loosing that battle already...

Let me know when you hear of Christian Suicide bombers, or when you see Christians stop giving money to Israel to fight the war on terrorism or when you see Christians be-heading people or persecuting people..let me know would ya?

[skeeter]

Oh, and I sincerely hope you DO NOT convert Muslims. You are a far more insidious enemy.

Unbelievable. You'd rather have body parts in the the streets than good jewish kids attending a BBQ put on by fundamentlists.

I fervently hope you are one of only a very few who feel this way.

[followerofchrist]

"What you do not have is the right to come to my country, an Islamic state, as a missionary to try and convert Moslems. You do not have a right to come to my country and to try and destroy our faith, our culture, our way of life."

Yeah, we should apply the same standards to all people.

[anotherview]

I have seen Christians persecuting people all my life. When my father was carted off to Auschwitz another Jewish man asked his Czech collaborator captors "Why?". The answer was "for Christ".

Inquisitions, crusades, pogroms... how were these different than what Muslims do today? You prefer a different tactic today and I understand that, but you are doing the same.

[safisoft]

We do not believe in "eternal damnation". That is a Christian concept.

I beg to differ on this point. You may more correctly that some modern Judaisms do not believe in eternal punishment, but it is not quite true regarding past Judaisms, nor is it correct to say it is a "Christian concept". In fact, Pharisaism (which is the historical ancestor of rabbinic Judaism) believed not only in the Resurrection of the Dead, but in the resurrection of the righteous AND unrighteous. In eternal reward in Olam Haba [Gan Eden, thw World to Come], or eternal punishment in Gehenna. Though many modern Judaisms have attempted to erase this historical fact, it is anacronistic to say this is what ALL the sages also taught. Some Talmud references: Bavli Nedrarim 39 and 40; Bavli Abodah Zarah 18; Bavli Shabbat 33 and 104; Bavli Sanhedrin 111; Bavli Bava Batra 79...

I do agree with your point that "Christianity" as practiced by the majority of the world's "Christian" population practice, has little in common with Judaism, past or present. On the other hand, Y'shua's first followers had much in common with the Pharisees and chaverim of the First Century, and until just before 70CE they had a shared religious experience in both the Temple and synagogues. There are notable Jewish scholars such as Dr. David Flusser, of blessed memory, of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem who have contributed greatly toward reconstructing the beliefs of First Century Judaisms, including the sect which followed Y'shua.

I also agree that many modern English translations of TaNaKh in "Christian Bibles" have many pagan biases in them, placed there by well-meaning translators who look at everything through 1,800 years of "Christian" anti-Semitism (example: Psalms 119 is twisted beyond recognition). This is unfortunate. I recommend any "Christian" who wants a English translation, should get a copy of JPS 1917, or "Complete Jewish Bible" if they want to see something closer to the Masor text. Best is to use a "computer Bible" and Hebrew text (Biblia Hebraica or similarly close to Stuttengard or Leningrad Codex). A caution about English dictionaries though: 'Strongs' will have biases built into the definitions - Brown-Driver-Briggs is far better and based upon the noted Jewish scholar Wilhelm Gesenius' lexicon.

[anotherview]

I suspect my views are very common among observant Israeli Jews.

Let's put it this way: the Arab tries to kill me. You try to take everything I am away from me. What is the difference, really? My preference for the Arab is that he is an honest enemy and that makes him much easier to defend against. If I defend against you I run the risk of offending those Christians (a large majority in the U.S.) who are really my friends.

To Orthodox Jews if you convert their children those children are as dead as if an Arab blew them up. I don't believe that personally, but if you understand that you would know that I am not one of a few.

Tell me, at that BBQ, would you feed my children pork?

[followerofchrist]

"You, like most Christians, read one small part of Jewish scripture (Tanakh, what you call the Old Testament) which has been reordered and edited and interpreted to suit Christian belief and assume you know Jewish scripture. Have you studied the Talmud? If not, how do you even begin to understand Torah from a Jewish perspective? You can't, of course. Most Christians do not understand that there is very little that Jews and Christians have in common in terms of religious belief."

Isn't the Talmud Rabbinical interpretation of the Old Testament? I have somewhat of an understanding of Jewish religion, probably greater than most Christians. I go by the New Testament and don't take the Old very literally.

Thank you for your honesty. I do have great respect for you as a person. I assure you I personally am not out to convert Jews, but if a Jew is interested in hearing what I have to say, I am happy to tell it.

[followerofchrist]

Ah, Pirana is just telling the truth, something we rarely see. I appreciate his honesty, even if it is harsh. He is passionate about his faith, as we are.

[missyme]

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT...

DO you practice the faith of JUDAISM because some people in the desert decided to create a religion and you follow the rules of Man? Of course not....

Do you commit Adultery? why not? it's not agaisnt the law
but it is agaisnt GOD's law right?

Do you honor the Sabbath? you don't have to? your not going to go to jail right? you do it because GOD commands that of you.

So when a Christian is commanded to share the GOSPEL with all people in the world you want to change the rules to suit you because it does not fit into what you believe..Sorry GOD doesn't work your way...

Million sof JEWS through-out the world have accepted Jesus Christ as the Son of GOD in fact soon you will see a Bible that comes out and has been researched for years by Jewish theologians that will give the Jewish people the hebrew scriptures from the Tanakh why Y'Shua is the Promised Messiah of Israel. Every person get ones in Israel for free. The Passion of Christ will be shown in Israel this month. You cannot stop anyone Jew or Gentile from knowing who Jesus is.

I would be more concerned about the Gay Pride Festival that is being held in Jersuslaem in 2005 if you care about there destiny I would be preaching to the Gays in Israel before they see there outcome like the ones of Soddom and Gommorah

[skeeter]

You try to take everything I am away from me. What is the difference, really?

One requires a choice, freely made.

Sheesh.

[Piranha]

You like me! You really like me!!

[missyme]

Can you recognize "Wolves" in Sheeps Clothing"
Here are some CLues.
1. Adolf Hitler
2. Stalin.
3. Ceasar
4. Napolean
5. David Koresch
6. Jim Jones
7. Rev Moon
8. Charles Manson
9. Saddam Huessin
10. Arafat.

Thes are not men of GOD they hide behind the sheild of the Devil so they can Kill the masses of people they have done through-out history....

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

Inquisitions, crusades, pogroms... how were these different than what Muslims do today? You prefer a different tactic today and I understand that, but you are doing the same.

I have a quick question for you.

If you were to see a fire in the back of a house and a bunch of people are having a party in the front of the house, would you hesitate to go tell the people to leave the house before the fire consumes them?

And if you did, and a few people left but the rest mocked you, would you feel hate or sorrow for those that wouldn't leave?

For some reason those who reject the Gospel of Jesus think we Christians hate them for rejecting it. They think we present it for what reason I don't know, but the reason a Christian tells others about Jesus is to save them.

Yes, we really believe that there is a fire coming to consume you. Yes, we really believe that if you follow Jesus you will be saved. No, we do not hate you if you reject it, we love you and feel a deep sorrow that you will be consumed.

Christianity teaches us about free will, about how everyone has the choice to follow Christ or not. The horrid anti-Christian activities done in Christ's name in the past rejected the idea of free will. We have not. The inquisitions, the pogroms, the forcible baptisms done in the New World are inexcusable and God will deal harshly with those involved.

But surely you are not equating those who say "Come and see, read and learn, believe and be saved" with those who would kill you if you did not convert, are you? Does a witnessing Christian have a sword in their words that force you to convert?

Pretend that you believe, really believe, that those around you who do not believe will perish. Now, is trying to save them a hateful act or a loving act?

[anotherview]

No, you are the one who is missing the point. Any Jew who accepts Jesus ceases to be a Jew.

Your religion is an anathema to mine. Your religions completely contradicts mine. Your religion, as you interpret it, is out to destroy mine.

[safisoft]

When my father was carted off to Auschwitz another Jewish man asked his Czech collaborator captors "Why?". The answer was "for Christ".

I read this with a profound sense of loss. The shoah is a mark against all humanity, but particularly for those who call themselves "Christian". Not that they personally may have participated, but in that they still hold to the beliefs of those who made such digusting statements as "for Christ" even possible.

Justin Martyr in his Dialog with Trypho (150 CE):
'We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all your festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely,because of your sins and the hardness of heart.' The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and your cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of your land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city Jerusalem. Your Circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men……as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observance of the Sabbath as a mark.'

Augustine (400 CE) in his Confessions:
How hateful to me are the enemies of your scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!'

Men like Justin Martyr, Augustine, and Martin Luther are still regarded as great "Christian" leaders. So few "Christians" know the disgusting things believed by these men, and have no need to know them. They therefore share some responsibility for what their words did to fuel the hatred and violence against the Jewish people. Many so-called "Christians" hold to "beliefs" much like Justin Martyr expressed above, and have no clue that such thinking is not only anti-Semitic, it is an attack against the Holy One of Yisra'el Himself.

To Jews down through the ages, when they have heard such biggoted nonsense as "...by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observance of the Sabbath as a mark..." it was no wonder they have considered "Christians" as enemies of God and His people. How could one ever consider the blessing of Shabbat a PUNISHMENT? Exactly what Bible WAS Justin Martyr reading? Did it even contain Exodus 31 in it?

[missyme]

IS this what your trying to tell me.

Jesus an observant JEW and the JEWISH Apostles decided to create some PAGAN religion to destroy the JEWS and to lead the PAGAN world astray for all time??????

This what you think of GOD and his plan for human beings, the world and salvation?????

[cookcounty]

It's the dilemma of monotheism.

By definition, a monotheist believes that his God is the best and only God. That makes His proclamations inherently universal. So do I keep the only true God to myself, or do I seek to make others aware of who He is? Which is more admirable?

[anotherview]

I agree with pirhana -- there is no point responding to you. Everything you ask assumes your religion is right. Everything you write is through the filter of your faith which is most definitely not mine.

Live a good life. Just stay away from me and mine.