Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Jamming for Jesus
Jerusalem Post ^ | July 29th, 2004 | Jenny Hazan

Posted on 08/02/2004 5:12:15 PM PDT by missyme

Though officially illegal, the capital's last Messianic Youth Ministry continues to recruit local Jewish teens

When Jerusalem-born Daniel Cohen was 15-years-old, he wanted to become a professional drummer. So when a friend told him about free drum lessons at The Jamm he went straight to the Russian Compound to check it out.

"At first, the people at The Jamm were really nice to me. They even started to teach me how to play the drums," says Cohen.

After two months of hanging out at the coffee bar/youth center, one of Cohen's newfound friends gave him a copy of the New Testament in Hebrew and began to initiate discussions on the subject of Christ. An additional two months passed before Cohen was invited to participate in a youth trip to the Sea of Galilee, where he could join other Jamm youth in a mikveh ceremony.

"He asked me if I knew what Baptism is," recalls Cohen, who is now 17. "He said it wasn't a Christian thing, but a Jewish thing for Jews who knew the 'right way.'"

"I was shocked," he continues. "I was born a Jew and I want to be a Jew and I am not interested in converting away from Judaism. It is horrible when you think you have friends and then you find out that they are actually your enemies."

Cohen isn't alone. The Jamm (Jerusalem Artists, Musicians and Media) Center has been trapping Jewish teens in its messianic web since it was established in 1998. With open mike nights on Wednesdays and Punk concerts on Thursdays, including free coffee, chai tea and snacks, the non-smoking, alcohol-free Jamm provides a clean and tempting atmosphere for Jerusalem youth.

In one of the organization's pamphlets, The Jamm describes itself as "the first and only Israeli Messianic Youth ministry center of its kind in Israel," the main goal of which is "to serve as a safe place for young people to find out about the mercies of the true and living God."

According to Aaron Rubin at Yad L'Achim (Hands to Our Brothers), a Jerusalem-based organization dedicated to helping Jewish brethren escape from the clutches of cults and missionaries, The Jamm is among 100 so-called Messianic Jewish movements across Israel, 20 congregations of which are headquartered in Jerusalem.

Rubin lists the Baptists, the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada (PAOC) and Caspari near Ben Yehuda Street, where Christians from Norway offer literature and courses to augment the effectiveness of English, Russian, Hebrew and French-speaking missionaries, among the larger missionary communities in the capital city.

Although he estimates the total number of missionaries currently operating in the country at around 4,000, Rubin says their numbers have increased by 100 percent over the past decade and that they continue to grow at an even more rapid pace today.

"The number of congregations are growing," says Rubin, who attributes the boom to several factors: the successful conversion to Christianity of new immigrants from the Former Soviet Union and Ethiopia; an increased number of dissidents who reject the theology of their church in favor of establishing their own individually-run institutions; the circumvention of the Law of Return, which according to a Supreme Court ruling in September 1992 stipulates that "openly-professed belief in Jesus is enough to render a born-Jew a member of another religion and thereby not eligible under Israel's immigration law for automatic citizenship in the Jewish State"; and a general expansion of messianic activity.

Messianic Jews share a belief in the idea that Judaism is the source of Christianity. The New Testament (so-called New Covenant) represents a unified extension of the Old Testament. Main tenets include regarding God as a compound unity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and belief in Jesus' virgin birth, sinless life, atoning death, bodily resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God the Father. They await the personal, bodily return of Jesus and believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost - the former to everlasting life, the latter to everlasting judgment and condemnation. It is in this Christian philosophy that the objective of conversion and "soul-saving" originates.

According to Rubin, the most common point of confusion for Jews who are approached by Messianic Jews is their self-definition as Jews. "They say they are Jews, not Christians and that their beliefs have nothing to do with Christianity."

This approach is deceptive, explains Rubin, since one-quarter of Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel are led by Christian-educated leaders.

In addition to their deceiving self-description, initial methods to entice new congregants usually include putting up posters and websites and going to festivals and public places to distribute pamphlets and books bearing Jewish symbols.

The difference between The Jamm and other organizations of its kind is that currently, it is the only active missionary body whose target audience are minors.

"Some movements send their children to speak with Jewish children because it's more delicate," says Rubin, "but most Jewish missionaries try to stay away from kids because it is illegal."

Article 368 of the Israeli Penal Code awards a maximum six-month incarceration for attempting to convert minors under the age of 18. Article 174(A) prohibits the offering and receiving of material benefits as an inducement to conversion of anyone, including those above and below the age of 18. Anyone who gives material benefits in exchange for a commitment to change one's religion can be sentenced up to 5 years in prison and fined a maximum of NIS 50,000.

According to Yoram Sheftel, a Ramat Gan-based criminal lawyer who volunteers on behalf of Yad L'Achim, the problem is that both the prosecution and the law enforcement authorities do not enforce the law.

"They rarely enforce the laws pertaining to missionary crimes," says Sheftel, who estimates that only one or two cases are actually brought to court every year.

No legal precedent exists because both crimes are dealt with at the lowest level, the Magistrate's Court, with appeals going to the District Court.

"There is no practical chance that a case like this would make it to the Supreme Court," adds Sheftel, who in 2000 drafted a bill that to date has neither been accepted nor rejected by the Knesset, which would make any attempt to persuade anyone to change his religion an offense against the law. "As it stands, the issue is not a priority in the eyes of the Jerusalem Police and the prosecution. These cases, therefore, are generally neither investigated nor prosecuted."

Rivka Cohen, Daniel's mother, who conditioned her interview on the changing of both her and her son's names, testifies to that fact.

Once she found out what was really going on at The Jamm in April 2003, she filed a report with the Jerusalem Police, who closed the case about a month later. They reopened the file in December 2003 after she filed a letter of complaint to the minister of justice.

"I have not heard anything about it since the case was reopened eight months ago," says Rivka. "From the very beginning, the police didn't want to take me seriously."

Besides the testimony of her son and the publications he was given at The Jamm that included a copy of the New Testament, a workbook about Jesus, a CD with Christian songs and a copy of the coffee house's publication 'Youth Speak ' a collection of personal stories by Israeli youth who became 'believers' in the Messianic movement, her report consisted of a video depicting incriminating discussions between Jamm members, shot by 18-year-old Yossi Levinson, a volunteer for Yad L'Achim who went undercover to investigate the place.

"It was disgusting. The place is dedicated to making Israeli youth believe in Yeshua," says Levinson, who disguised himself as a believer looking to make a video for fundraising purposes in America, in order to unveil the true philosophy behind The Jamm. "It's not maybe yes, maybe no. It's black and white. The best thing a believer can do is to make a non-believer believe in Christ. It's an even bigger 'mitzvah' if they convert a Jew."

Levinson reveals that two days after he handed the video over to the Jerusalem Police, he got a call from friends at The Jamm inquiring how the video got into the wrong hands. "I was shocked. Until now, I don't know how they found out about the video so quickly."

The police didn't call him in for questioning until three weeks later. At the same time, Richard Ayal Frieden, owner of The Jamm, was approached by police immediately.

Frieden is proud to define himself as a Jewish believer in Yeshua, but denies that the purpose of his establishment is to convert Israeli youth.

"The Jamm," says Frieden, a former narcotics detective at the Jerusalem precinct who left his job in 1994, "is a non-profit organization that exists to promote local arts and to encourage youth and young adults in their respective musical talents. There is nothing illegal going on at The Jamm. We are not actively proselytizing young people."

"There is a witch-hunt going on," continues Frieden who, in addition to The Jamm, runs an annual week-long music camp for messianic kids and oversees the Jamm Academy of Arts, which holds after-school fine arts, multimedia and computer graphics classes taught by believing professionals and Heart Rock TV (HRTV), which produces TVY2, a 30-minute Hebrew music video program for central public access channel Tevel (Arutz Mekomi Merkaz), national public access channel 25 (Arutz Zahav Artzi), Matav Digitali and Yes 90 (Artzi Arutz Hapatuach).

"If I've committed a crime in sharing the love of God through the good work that we are doing at the Jamm," says Frieden, "then put me on the stand."

On the HRTV website, Frieden writes: "The youth of Israel are key to the future of Israel and to the expansion of the indigenous body of believers. Many Israeli youth are walking in darkness. We are here to inform them of 'the one whom they have not believed ' and introduce them to 'the one whom they have not heard' (Romans 10:14)."

Frieden explains that The Jamm holds one faith-based worship service per week, meant exclusively for members of the Jerusalem Youth Cell Group. "Each person under the age of 18 who comes on Monday night needs permission from their parents."

Minors, claims Frieden, are given a waiver that clearly indicates what the service is about, for parents to sign. "This is something that we're quite strict about."

Shmulik Ben-Rubi, spokesman for the Jerusalem Police, concurs. "We have talked to both kids and their parents and we have found that parents allow their kids to be in this place."

Ben-Rubi notes that the investigation surrounding The Jam is still open. "If we find any sign of conversion, we will act according to the law. But as far as we know, they are not trying to convert kids."

The police might have missed Cohen, who says he was invited to a worship night without being given a waiver. "I was never asked to have my parents sign a permission form. I just came on a Thursday night and they invited me to come on Monday. They invite all the people who come on Thursday to the prayer meeting. That's how I got there. I wouldn't have known about it otherwise."

According to Cohen, believer meetings are the prime time for circulating missionary literature.

"I personally don't hand out anything," says K., a 28-year-old Jamm volunteer from Germany. "I cannot hide what I believe in, but I would never force it on anybody or give someone a pamphlet."

Cohen has a different version. "They gave me workbooks and the New Testament and said that Jesus gave his life for us and we need to give our lives to Him."

Cohen, whose parents divorced a couple of years before he started spending time at The Jamm, realizes in retrospect that he was the perfect candidate for missionary activity. "It was a very rough time in my life. I needed friends and the people at The Jamm were nice. They listened and talked to me."

The believers, he says, also offered him a place to stay at their shared boys' house. "They go to the weak people and they try to take them in."

Rubin says that Cohen's assessment is accurate. "It is very difficult to change the mind of someone who doesn't have any problems in his life. That's why they are going to lonely people or people with financial or family problems. There are a lot of people out there who are in trouble and these missionaries give them hope."

Levinson asserts that awarding hope is The Jamm's most cherished technique.

"They act nice to people who don't have someone who will listen to them at home, or who don't have a nice home," he says. "The Jamm is a nice, warm place for people who don't have a nice, warm place to go."

Rubin claims that the current economic crisis in Israel and in the capital in particular, provides the missionaries with more opportunities than usual, since many Israelis are particularly needy at this time.

"It's a business," says Rubin and emphasizes that all of the messianic congregations in Israel receive money from Christian churches abroad to help them conduct their activities. "When they are speaking with Jews, they are Jews. When they try to get money from Christians, they are Christians. Basically, they are liars."

The Jamm fits the mold. Not only does the organization have affiliates in both Franklin, Tennessee and the Netherlands, it is sponsored in part by Gratefully Grafted Ministries International, headquartered in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, which offers financial support to some 40 messianic ministries in Israel, including congregations, worship centers and "outreach programs" like The Jamm.

Says Rubin, "The Jamm aims to target youth in the street and they don't have a problem getting the money to do it from abroad."

"The Jamm is a Christian fundamentalist group and nothing more than that," adds Binyamin Kluger, head of advocacy for the anti-missionary department at Yad L'Achim.

"Why are Israeli authorities doing nothing to stop them?" asks Rivka. "I just don't understand. If the law clearly says that what they are doing is wrong, why isn't anything being done about it?

"I just try to imagine what would happen if a couple of religious Jews started trying to convert Christian boys to stop believing in Yeshua. I'm sure it wouldn't hold for one week."

She then offers one reason the Israeli justice system has neglected to deal with the issue. "Perhaps Christians in America have a very big influence here, but unless we are willing to sacrifice our own Jewish kids for the donations and tourism money of Christians, our first obligation is to protect our own youth."

A letter written by then-Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in which he expressed his disagreemet with the 1997 Proposed Bill on the Prohibition of Inducement for Religious Conversion, supports Cohen's suggestion.

"It has come to my attention that a bill before the Israeli parliament concerning possession of missionary literature has created a stir among our many Christian friends," wrote Netanyahu in response to the private member bill proposed by then-Labor Party opposition member Nissim Zvilli and Rabbi Moshe Gafni of the Yahadut HaTorah Party, which would have made the printing, distribution and possession of missionary material a crime punishable by up to one year in prison. "I would like to assure you that this bill does not have the support of the Israeli government...the government strenuously objects to this bill and will act to ensure that it does not pass. Israel deeply values your support, and we appreciate your friendship and commitment."

The reason for the legal authorities' lack of action against missionary organizations remains obscure. In the meantime, The Jamm, which has a link on the Jerusalem Municipality website, has plans to expand its horizons to include an indoor skateboarding park on Ben Yehuda Street, a project their pamphlet describes as "a [potential] harvest field for the Lord."

"There are few cases that are as black and white as The Jamm," says Rubin. "The case is very clear. Why aren't they being properly investigated or prosecuted? It's a very good question."


TOPICS: Israel; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: messianicjews
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180 ... 681-697 next last
To: followerofchrist
This is straight talk, so don't read it if you are afraid of political incorrectness.

Oh, I can assure you I am most politically incorrect. I suspect many fundamentalist Christians will be quite upset at what I have to say. I don't care that you are supposed to be great supporters of Israel. It is support I deeply distrust.

I have a friend who is half Jewish, and I am actively sharing my faith as a Christian with her.

There is no such thing as half Jewish. That is a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. I think what you mean to say is that she has one Jewish parent. If her mother is Jewish then so is she under Jewish law. If her father is Jewish then she is NOT Jewish under Jewish law unless she converts. It is an all-or-nothing proposition. There is no half.

Is that offensive to you?

Since she isn't Jewish, no, of course not.

Doesn't she have the right to make her own decisions?

Of course. What you do not have is the right to come to my country, a Jewish state, as a missionary to try and convert Jews. You do not have a right to come to my country and to try and destroy our faith, our culture, our way of life.

Her mother is a Protestant Gentile, so does she even qualify as a Jew?

No, she does not.

Is half of her heritage gone now because her dad married a Protestant?

From a national perspective, no, and she can still move to Israel under the Law of Return. From a religious perspective, yes, it's gone unless she converts. Personally, my view is that if she does not have a Jewish mother and is not living a Jewish life, then yes, it's gone. However, it can be reclaimed if she so chooses.

I am not one of those suck-up types who shrink in the face of opposition and political incorrectness.

Anyone who has read my posts on Free Republic over the past four years knows that is something we have in common. I am willing to take positions that are unpopular on Free Republic as well if they are what I truly believe.

I am not afriad to ask you these questions. I understand fully why Jews don't try to convert Gentiles: because it is an ethnic religion.

Dead wrong. You most clearly do not understand at all. It is forbidden to encourage someone to convert but conversion itself is not forbidden. It is a religious, not an exthnic issue. One look at the ethnic diversity of Israel should tell you that this is true.

In your own bible, your own scriptures says that he will call some Gentiles His people (Do I have to look up this passage?). Exactly what does that mean? Which Gentiles share in His glory according to you?

You, like most Christians, read one small part of Jewish scripture (Tanakh, what you call the Old Testament) which has been reordered and edited and interpreted to suit Christian belief and assume you know Jewish scripture. Have you studied the Talmud? If not, how do you even begin to understand Torah from a Jewish perspective? You can't, of course. Most Christians do not understand that there is very little that Jews and Christians have in common in terms of religious belief.

Having said that, the concept of a "righteous gentile" is alien to you. Judaism isn't exclusivistic, a major difference from Christiantiy. G-d judges our good deeds and bad deeds and weighs them against each other. Ganeden, or heaven if you prefer, ins't exclusively Jewish. It's for all people who do more good than bad. There is no need for you to convert to go to heaven. Just live a good, righteous life.

As for the rest of it, most British and most Americans aren't fundamentalist Christians. It also seems, if one follows the international press and U.N. votes, that most of the Christian world would be perfectly happy to see Israel destroyed. I also believe that G-d decided when Israel should come into existance again, nobody else. Your love is poison to us if it is expressed as an attempt to convert. Please, go support the Arab and love them instead of us. I would rather die a Jew that have Christians come to Israel to destroy the Jewish nature of Israel.

We do not believe in "eternal damnation". That is a Christian concept. Where Jesus preached is totally unimportant. He was either a teacher (rabbi) who was deified by his followers after his death or else a false messiah like Sabbatai Tzvi. Either way, to me, he is an irrelevant dead person. Fundamentalist Christians (about 20% of American Christians and a much smaller percentage everywhere else) cannot respect other beliefs because they, like Muslims, believe the non-believer is doomed. Well, we believe otherwise.

I have no problems with Christians visiting Israel provided they respect our beliefs. If Christians cannot do that then they are not welcome here. If you cannot respect that Jews wish to remain Jewish, if you cannot accept that we do not wish to be conquered by missionaries any more that we wish to be conquered by armed Arabs, then you are every bit as much the enemy as the Arab is.

Tnakfully, most Americans do respect our differences.

141 posted on 08/03/2004 8:05:43 AM PDT by anotherview
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: missyme
So do you ever see a day coming that will bring Jews and Christians together that will confront the issue about Jesus and his intent to bring Jew and Gentile alike a understanding of who he is and how he was to bring all mankind reconciliation with GOD through his death and resurrection?

I believe the Holy One of Yisra'el, Blessed be He, has begun this. As Romans 11, and Isaiah 2 indicate, it has begun with a renewal not with Gentile "Christians" converting Jews, but with "Christians" returning to the roots of their faith and away from the paganism that was infused into their practices in the Second and Third Century. "One in Messiah" does not mean Jews became, or become, "Christian" - but the opposite. It is that those who follow the Master turn to Malachi 4 and understand that it is not speaking of a time in the past... but of the future (including 4:4: 'remember the Torah of Moses'). When "Christians" repent of their pagan beliefs, then I believe we will see more Jews returning to the God of their ancestors as well.

For an exercise, read the book of Matthew, and from that alone try and discover what the essence of the "Good News" (i.e. euaggelion = gospel) is. It is stated 3 times. Chapter 3, 4, and 10 - entirely within quotation marks. Then compare to Acts 2:38 and ask yourself... how would a man of Israel in the First Century 'Repent'? And what does Peter mean 'be baptized'. It would come as a shock to most "Christians" to know that "Baptism" is not a "Christian" invention - it comes straight from Torah, the Law of Moses, and this was the language of Judaism (Baptism is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew word t'villah). Judaism has refered to this for millenia as the Mikvah. Peter was not describing something NEW - but something OLD... Very OLD.

"Faith" in Bible language is a VERB. Traditional "Christianity" has treated it as a mental action, and the ascribing to a formula or creed. Scripture NEVER does. Compare James 2 with Habbakuk 2:4 and Psalms 119:86. Hab 2:4 and Psalms 119:86 both use the same word emunah and yet, the translators have chosen because of their biases against what they see as "Jewish Law" have not used the same English word. It should be: FAITHFULNESS: i.e. a steadfast determination to OBEY every word from God's mouth. Hmm, sounds like James chapter 2. BTW, "James" is the English transliteration of nothing. The author of the Epistle was named Ya'akov and the English for that is "Jacob". Ever wonder why? Answer: more moving AWAY from "Jewish sounding things". The so-called "James Ossiuary" discovered several years ago did NOT say, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus". A faithful English translation would have been "Jacob, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus". The best English transliteration would have been "Ya'akov son of Yosef, brother of Y'shua".

Now, to get back on subject... if the JAMM had wanted to do a better work, they would have been telling that young man, "Repent, the Kingdom of HaShem is at hand! Return to Torah. Seek for the Holy One diligently. Love Him with all your heart, your soul, and your strength..."

That would have been a more faithful approach.
142 posted on 08/03/2004 8:14:01 AM PDT by safisoft
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | View Replies]

To: Piranha

Right.


143 posted on 08/03/2004 8:14:21 AM PDT by Kerfuffle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 138 | View Replies]

To: ovrtaxt
We are the best friends you have, and you don't even know it.

Pardon me, but I do know who my friends are and who my enemies are. Arabs who wish do destroy me and my country are the enemy. Christians who support Israel while respecting Jewish beliefs are my friends. Christians who try and convert me, who try and destroy the Jewish nature of Israel, who try and make us something other than Jewish, are as much or more an enemy than the Arab. The Arab is honest about his intentions. The Christian prostletyzer tells me he or she loves me and then tries to destroy all I am. I'd choose the Arab, an honest enemy. He's easier to fight.

And yes, there are plenty of Jews in my church.

No, there are NO Jews in your church. There are people who converted to Christianity from Judaism, but nobody in the Jewish community sees them as in any way Jewish any more. Christianity and Judaism are much more different than you imagine. The two are mutually exclusive.

Oh, and I sincerely hope you DO NOT convert Muslims. You are a far more insidious enemy.

NOTE: My strong words are for protletyzers only, not Christians who respect Judaism and are willing to let the Jews of Israel continue to exist as Jews. Most Americans identlfy as Christian but are not fundamentalists and do not try to shove their religion down our collective throats. Most Americans are true friends of Israel.

144 posted on 08/03/2004 8:16:12 AM PDT by anotherview
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: anotherview; followerofchrist

The best way to clarify AV's comments is to *slightly* paraphrase them, then imagine them coming from the Saudi ambassador.

"What you do not have is the right to come to my country, an Islamic state, as a missionary to try and convert Moslems. You do not have a right to come to my country and to try and destroy our faith, our culture, our way of life."


145 posted on 08/03/2004 8:19:00 AM PDT by Kerfuffle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: missyme
I am a Christian and a big supporter of Israel. But I have to say I am dismayed by this article, and the attempt of some to use government force to quash evangelism.

The Jamm (Jerusalem Artists, Musicians and Media) Center has been trapping Jewish teens in its messianic web since it was established in 1998.

"Trapping teens in its web", huh? This is journalism?

146 posted on 08/03/2004 8:26:09 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: missyme
First they were not trying to covert this youth to another religion,

Judaism and Christianity are VERY different religions. Having never read the Talmud or other Jewish scriptures not included in Christian scriptures you don't have a clue about Judaism, do you? You have a reordered and edited Tanakh called the "Old Testament" and your Christian beliefs and from taht you assume you know what Judaism is. You are, I beleive, well meaning but totally ignorant.

they were however sharing there faith about who Jesus Christ is,

Jesus is a dead guy who is unimportant to Jews. They were sharing Christian belief and Christian faith and a Christian view of who they believe Jesus is, not who Jesus was (note the past tense). In other words, they were sharing another religion, prostletyzing, trying to convert, doing something that is seen as sin or evil by Jews.

learning about something good

To an observant Jew there is NOTHING GOOD about evangelical Christianity and it has, indeed, been an even greater force for evil and persecution througout history than even Mohommedanism.

now if they were sharing material about Satanic Cults I would have a problem with that...

To me there is very little difference between Christian protletyzers and satanic cults. Actually, I prefer satanic cults, as they are not actively trying to destroy Judaism in Israel.

147 posted on 08/03/2004 8:26:59 AM PDT by anotherview
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies]

To: Zack Nguyen

If you support evangelism in Israel you are no supporter of Israel. The two are mutually exclusive. You support Israel to destroy it's Jewish nature under your own terms. Please, go support the Arabs that way instead.


148 posted on 08/03/2004 8:28:24 AM PDT by anotherview
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: Piranha
I don't know why you think that missionaries have a perfect right to approach these people in Israel, a foreign country, and trick them into believing that they can accept Christianity and continue to be true to their Judaism.

If there's any trickery going on, that isn't right. But trust me, no one can be tricked into the kingdom of God. It is a conversion of the spirit. Christ is a Jew, and he was the Passover Lamb who cam to seek and save that which was lost. That includes Jews as well.

149 posted on 08/03/2004 8:29:30 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Kerfuffle

If and when a Saudi ambassador says that I would say, yes, he is right. His is a Muslim country and the Muslim beliefs of that country should be resepcted.

You don't get it, do you? This isn't Jew vs. Arab. This IS Jew vs. prostletyzing Christian, who, like the Arab who wants to destroy Israel, is an enemy of the Jewish people. The only thing that separates you from the Arab is your tactics.

USUAL DISCLAIMER: I am not opposed to Christianity. I respect the majority of American Christians who in turn respect my beliefs.


150 posted on 08/03/2004 8:31:56 AM PDT by anotherview
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: anotherview

GOD commanded all humanity to live by the Ten Commanments RIGHT? it is our duty to let people know that GOD has commanded this? I don't believe anyone should try to convert, but ANYBODY, and EVERYBODY who knows that JESUS CHRIST has a responsibility to share his GOSPEL message of eternal salvation through his blood sacrafice by sharing notice I say "SHARING" this message.

WHY? because it's commanded by GOD to do so. If GOD did not command this I think most human beings could care less about preaching the news of Jesus to the Jewish nation.

Matthew 18:20
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you always, even unto the end of the world.
Amen.

Sorry my friend it is more important to follow GOD's commands than defying them for your sake...


151 posted on 08/03/2004 8:37:34 AM PDT by missyme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 144 | View Replies]

To: Zack Nguyen

Throughout the ages missionizing Christians have attempted to trick, bribe, isolate, threaten, wound and even kill Jews in an attempt to force them to accept Christianity.

Unfortunately, some have succumbed.

That this is happening in Israel itself is a scandal. You are welcome to practice your own religion so long as it doesn't interfere with my rights. When you try to pull my minor children out of our faith and into yours, you are violating my family integrity. I would like to see Israel expel every proselytizer it uncovers.


152 posted on 08/03/2004 8:38:31 AM PDT by Piranha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: anotherview

I can hardly think of a worse thing to say to someone who considers himself a friend of Israel, but say what you will.

Evangelical Christians are possibly the single biggest Israeli supporters in America today. We support Israel because of our belief in the Bible, and the fact that God granted the land to Israel long ago. We love the Jewish people because Christianity is unmistakably Jewish. We support the War on Terror in part because of the suffering of the Jewish people.


153 posted on 08/03/2004 8:40:17 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 148 | View Replies]

To: missyme

If you believe that converting Jews is what G-d commands you to do then, to me, you are no different than the Arab trying to convert the infadel. You are my enemy every bit as much as the Palestinian with a Kalishnakov, and I will fight you with the same zeal with which I fight him.

One thing you are not: a friend of anyone who is Jewish or a friend of Israel. If you come to my country do not expect to be treated as a friend. If you come to my country and try to convert Jews expect to be deported.


154 posted on 08/03/2004 8:41:30 AM PDT by anotherview
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: missyme
I don't believe anyone should try to convert, but ANYBODY, and EVERYBODY who knows that JESUS CHRIST has a responsibility to share his GOSPEL message of eternal salvation through his blood sacrafice by sharing notice I say "SHARING" this message.

A rose by any other name...

You can call it by whatever name you choose, but your first clause talks about converting people, and then the rest of the sentence defines the process.

Missyme, you believe that Christianity is some sort of transcendent religion. There is Christianity, or belief in Jesus as devine, and then there are all of the other religions. From that perspective, you have convinced yourself that you are not converting people, simply showing them the way. Well, that is precisely what conversion is. Christianity is a religion like all others, and what you are doing to them makes you their enemy.

If we are going to get along in this world, you have to learn to respect others, including their beliefs.

155 posted on 08/03/2004 8:43:56 AM PDT by Piranha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: anotherview

Sorry I did not know you didn't beleive in GOD almighty...
Now I see your point...


156 posted on 08/03/2004 8:44:16 AM PDT by missyme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: Zack Nguyen

If you go to Israel and DO NOT try and convert Jews to Christianity, expect to be welcomed.

One reason for the success of the Jewish-Evangelical alliance in the last decade or so (and anotherview may disagree) is that the Evangelicals by and large (although not entirely) have not mustered their efforts to converting the Jews.

It is a zero sum game. The more that Evengelical Christians do that, the less they are loved, admired and welcomed into Jewish communities or Israel, the Jewish state.


157 posted on 08/03/2004 8:48:04 AM PDT by Piranha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 153 | View Replies]

To: Piranha

Again my faith is based on what GOD says to do, not you? do you pracrice your faith on what man says or GOD says.

I have showed you through scripture that GOD has commanded to teach all nations, should I sacrafice my faith and salvation in GOD for you? would you do that for me?


158 posted on 08/03/2004 8:48:28 AM PDT by missyme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies]

To: Zack Nguyen
Evangelical Christians are possibly the single biggest Israeli supporters in America today.

If that support comes with one huge string attached: that we must suffer attempts to convert our children and lead them away from Judaism, then we do not want your support.

Thankfully, most American support does not come with the string attached by evangelicals.

We love the Jewish people because Christianity is unmistakably Jewish.

No, evangelical Christianity is distinctly anti-Jewish. Your interpretation of love is to prostletyze, which is an overt attempt to destroy our faith, our religion, and our culture. Please, don't love us. Hate is instead and go love the Arab, since you equate love with our destruction as a distinct people, culture, and religion.

159 posted on 08/03/2004 8:51:08 AM PDT by anotherview
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 153 | View Replies]

To: missyme

Once again you do NOT understand. I believe in G-d with all my heart. Believing in Jesus has nothing to do with believing in G-d to a Jew.

Two different, distinct religions -- get it? Judaism has no more in common with Christianity than Islam has with Christianity. After all, Muslims accept Jewish and Christian scripture but completely reinterpret it. Christians accept a small subset of Jewish scripture and completely reinterpret it.

If someone is a Jew, by definition, they do not believe in Jesus. Any Jew who accepts Jesus is no longer Jewish.


160 posted on 08/03/2004 8:54:28 AM PDT by anotherview
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 156 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180 ... 681-697 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson