Posted on 08/01/2004 3:39:27 PM PDT by 68skylark
Yorktown Heights, N.Y. -- It's like "Cheers," as rewritten by Fox News, at Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 8328, where everyone knows your name, the cigarette smoke is as thick as the aftermath of an extended firefight, and you'll never lack for company by taking Hillary Rodham Clinton's name in vain.
"Put Michael Moore through basic training; I'd like to see that," said Eilene Witts, of Mahopac, whose oldest son, Keith Reiss, recently returned from Iraq and is considering going back. "If I saw him on the street, I'd poke him in the eye. I'd poke him in both eyes."
Thursday's Democratic convention finale had as many soldiers and sailors as a World War II Betty Grable movie. The ones sidling up to the bar here Friday afternoon, mostly veterans of Korea and Vietnam, had no interest in joining Mr. Kerry's band of brothers. But they had their thoughts on the Democrats' martial pageant, on war and peace. If you listened carefully enough, you could hear the muffled drums of American life just beneath the surface.
Bob Horton, a 72-year-old Korean War veteran - and one of the post's more moderate members - who voted for Bill Clinton twice and Bush 41 and Bush 43 before and after him, resented Mr. Kerry's reliance on his war record as a selling point.
"It was opportunism, that's the way I look at it," he said in the cluttered office of the hall, which was founded in 1946 and has 115 members. "He's had an antimilitary voting record since he's been in the Senate, and he has a screwy record of being for the war and against funding it. It's hard to put those two positions together."
Still, he notes that Post 8328 has members ranging in age from 20 to 86, who've fought in World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and "all the little shootouts we've had."
He paused, as if thinking of them all. "I was born in '32, and it seems this country has been at war the whole time since. World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Middle East, it just never ends."
Like Mr. Horton, most of the other members are likely to vote for Mr. Bush. Their choice of candidates aside, they doubt that a person's military service has much relevance to his suitability to be commander in chief.
"Some of the best managers in the world never played baseball," said Dennis Guiry, a 65-year-old retired bond trader, who served in the Army and reserves from 1960 to 1966. "I don't know if Babe Ruth would have been a good manager. Clinton could have been a general in the Army and he still wouldn't get my vote."
There's plenty of macho talk of showing the terrorists who's boss.
"These guys made one big mistake," said Bruce Blackadder, who served in Vietnam in 1968 and '69 and was respectful of the dangerous missions Mr. Kerry ran in the Mekong Delta, if not his candidacy. "They shouldn't have messed with the U.S.A."
THEY concede that Mr. Kerry's display of his military bona fides makes political sense - this odd, amorphous war as likely to pull in middle-aged office workers as 18-year-old recruits figures to be with us for a long time. But for all the talk of strength and toughness by both candidates, the V.F.W. crew know that this is not your father's or grandfather's war. Mr. Blackadder talks of being out fishing but staying alert for terrorists who might want to poison the Croton Reservoir or blow up the Kensico Dam.
"It's a kind of war we've never experienced before," Mr. Guiry said. "I'd rather fight the bear coming down the hill toward you. You kill him and it's over. This is like killing a nest of bees. There's always more of them."
The hall here is full of patches and rifles and posters and memorabilia from wars gone by, as if it wasn't just World War II that was the good war, but the whole lot of them. Still, there's one thing that seems to have changed.
Mrs. Witts's son, a sergeant in the Fourth Infantry, has been in harm's way and could be returning there. But it's far less common for the children and grandchildren of the members here to serve than it was for them. Like the delegates at both conventions, it's common for people to honor the military, with the assumption that someone else or someone else's children will be out fighting.
So Mr. Horton isn't quite sure what he thinks of the war in Iraq, but he is sure what he wants for his four grandchildren.
"I don't want to see them in harm's way," he said. "Of course, it's selfish, but it's very natural. I'd rather see the kid across the street go than my kids. If anyone tells you different, I think they'd be lying."
Oh well -- it's the NY Times. For them, this counts as an aggressive, hard-hitting attack on Kerry. Remember -- they aren't "liberal," they're "urban."
His title says that "Veterans dont like kerry". Then he devotes the entire article to making the point that "Veterans are crazies". Face it. The left hates our military.
They probably couldn't print what the other veterans were saying due to censorship guidelines, LOL.
Since the NY Times makes this anti-war point, I'd like to supply the other side of the argument:
"[A] generous parent should [say], 'If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace;' and this single reflection, well applied, is sufficient to awaken every man to duty." Thomas Paine, The Crisis, December 23, 1776.
That's what America is all about -- it's about not shirking trouble, so we make sure that trouble doesn't have a chance to grow and get worse for future generations. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken.
Excellent point!
Helloooo, you bigoted moron. Less people are serving because we are not now, and have not for two generations, fought a war in which 4 million Americans are in arms on uniform. THAT -- history, you shm*ck -- is why it is less common for the children and grandchildren to be serving.
So it doesn't have a rat's *ss to do with anyone's "assumption that someone else" will be fighting. And as for the fairness of who is serving and who is not, we now have a volunteer army -- so no one is there who does not choose to be. I spit on the New York Times.
Congressman Billybob
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At my American Legion Post I havent found a Kerry voter yet. I am sure there are some, but they are keeping themselves scarce, they know in their hearts Kerry isnt the right man.
Well you had a stronger reaction to those sentences than I did. I think I see your point. Although in all honesty it seems reasonable for the author to point out that military service is much less common now than it used to be, and far fewer Americans (even veterans) know someone who is serving now.
I think that you might want to make that closer to 16 million - during WWII. Today, we have less than 10% of that number in uniform.
What I resent so much is that Kerry is reopening decades old wounds for millions of us.
Nam Vet
With all due respect to Mr. Guiry, I think that quite a few of our conflicts with Indians had quite a bit in common with the threat of domestic terrorism.
Likewise, from the very start of our country we've had Islamic crazies preying on our international shipping -- not too different in some ways from the present threat to our air transport system.
The point is, as a great man once said, we're Americans and we've been through the fire before. We're not scared of the so-called "terrorists" -- we've faced down much worse threats in the past.
I'm sorry you consider memories of the past to be "wounds." Hopefully time has allowed bad feelings to soften or fade. For myself, I have nothing but the highest regard for Vietnam veterans. (Heck, I even have respect for Kerry's achievements -- though not much else in his public service career.)
I've been able to serve in uniform with some great folks who are Vietnam era vets -- I'm so glad they get to be in uniform today to experience the wonderful support from so many people. (Indiana is a great place to be in uniform -- the citizens just can't say enough nice things!) I think for those guys, the kind words go a real long way.
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