Fateful flight: Pilot of Nagasaki atomic attack dies

Patriot Ledger ^ | Saturday, July 17, 2004 | CHRISTOPHER WALKER and DIANA SCHOBERG

[bonesmccoy]

Oh I see... so were those WMD's in Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

I guess so.

But, then again, we can't find those WMD's either .. can we?

UP YOURS Neo-Con!

[bonesmccoy]

1. I ain't a lady.
2. Trumans lousy war planning is part of the idiocy at the end of WW2.

3. Care to argue that "Harry S." did such a great job defending freedom when in fact, it DIRECTLY LEAD to the Korean War, Yugoslavian conflict, and brought half the world's population under 50 years of Communism?

[bonesmccoy]

My foot... the civilian population in Japan was starving by Aug '45. I know people who were there and were greatly undernourished from the inability to grow enough rice to feed the population.

The military was losing it's grip and it's a fact.

[bonesmccoy]

Mike,

You are taking the view that all of Japan was equally behind the Emperor.

The reality is that the two atomic weapon targets were cities in Southern Japan.

That's like saying that nuking Atlanta and Dallas will cause the surrender of the Union in 1865.

[Aeronaut]

[bonesmccoy]

Ah yes the History Channel... now that's a quality source of "factual" info! Smirk!

Go talk to people who were in Japan in 1944-1946.

You're dead wrong. The military forces were losing control of the war effort after MidWay.

The more rational Japanese leaders knew that the war effort was doomed.

Then, when Yamamoto's plane was intercepted by the work of Japanese American nisei in the Military Intel Service, the Japanese war strategic abilities were even more disabled.

Your description is only true of the high military leaders. The grunts in the fields were being fed the same racist rubbish that some of the people on this board spew.

It's plain garbage.

[bonesmccoy]

Oh yeah... gee... nuking 250,000 people in two days and then having your population's DNA permanently disabled with gamma rays is a great "big favor"!

NOT!

[Iris7]

I am familiar with your point of view. Your opinions are generally held to be true throughout the "enlightened" classes, those folks who respect NPR.

Nonetheless, in war there is no room for sentiment.

A great struggle erupted after the atomic bombings between the "peace" faction, which included sections of the Imperial Navy very impressed with being subjected to a weapon so technically advanced it was as if the bombs were sent from the distant future. This faction carried the day with the Emperor. It looks to me that the Navy would not have weighed in without the bombings, and peace not made.

As is well known the Japanese offered peace early in the year with the condition that the Emperor remain the Emperor, that is, that the existing legal and social order to be preserved in it’s most important aspects. Fortunately this offer was rejected. The Emperor had to reign at the obvious pleasure of the Americans for the thing to work.

Personally I would have sent "fat man" to Kyoto instead of Nagasaki. The Imperial Palace would have been a bad target since Hirohito was needed to make peace, but Kyoto was the ancient seat of the Emperor, the most holy place in Shinto. Been to Kyoto, too. Remarkable historical artifacts, cultural treasures, etc.

I have contemplated the Ryoanji. In Tokyo I have burned incense at the Senkakuji. Those boys had the warrior spirit. Once waited outside the Yasukuni as I did not think a Gaijin should enter.

When wars get out of hand the killing gets manic. This happened in Japan in 1944-45. A traumatic experience for many. That war is sad is no reason to become sentimental over the whole business, though. War is too serious a matter for sentiment, emotionalism, or for fear.

[Dark Knight]

>>Oh I see... so were those WMD's in Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

I guess so.

But, then again, we can't find those WMD's either .. can we?

UP YOURS Neo-Con!
<<

No, it was plague, cholera and anthrax in China. The program was expanding. And you did not read my posts. People were starving in Japan and the war would have been over pronto...just like Stalingrad. Sure, Hitler believed that!

I've included a very timely post on why the two bomb targets were chosen. It includes a number of different factors. Of course you did not study...but must be in tune with that inner Hibakusha.

I've known men that were in Japan during that time. They would have fought man to man. They now think it was foolish, but they do not have the illusions that it would not have been the biggest disaster to Japan in all history.

Of course the most brilliant denial yet is the Japanese plan to kill all prisoners of war.

>>Yet the evidence is crystal clear. The use of nuclear weapons to end World War II quickly and decisively averted the death or maiming of hundreds of thousands American soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen. It also saved the lives of some 400,000 Allied prisoners of war and civilian detainees in Japanese hands, all of whom were to be executed in the event of an American invasion of Japan. Above all, it saved untold hundreds of thousands more Japanese-perhaps millions-from becoming casualties of pre-invasion bombing and shelling, followed by two invasions and forcible occupation. <<

I've already posted the address, but you don't like the information, so you have to ignore it. It's easier that way, right?

DK
Neo Con?

[Radix]

How would you have ended the war against Japan, back in the 1940's?

[helper]

Yes, as I recall Kyoto was not targeted because it was the historical capitol of Japan.

[JockoManning]

I'm sorry you missed my point. The issue in a wartime situation is to win the war. Internment camps in California had no bearing on operational and strategic decisions in the Pacific Theater of Operations, and are therefore not relevant to the major topic under discussion. POWs being used as slave labor (the exact location of whom was *not* known to the Allies at that time) were an unknown quantity and therefore not relevant to the major topic either.

The relevant question was whether we and our allies were willing to take an estimated 250,000 and 500,000 casualties to invade and subdue the Japanese home islands. The answer, of course, was that we would do so only if absolutely necessary. The only alternative was to break the Japanese will to continue the war. Use of two nuclear weapons did just that - without any harm to those Allied forces which were already in the early parts of the process of staging for the invasion. That was the only relevant conclusion. And yes - by definition the nation which is involved in war with the United States is our enemy, as are its citizens individually - there is no alternative there either. You may not like that fact, you may wish it were otherwise, indeed you may pretend that somehow you can make it otherwise, but that is simply something going on within your own mind and nothing about which any of the rest of us need to worry.

Your truly critical error here, is in assuming that most folks, including most folks in the countries which are our enemies, think just like you do. It should be obvious from the responses you've received here (and probably elsewhere - this doesn't sound like the first time you've tried out these ideas) that you're wrong about how people think, as well. As has been evidenced here, most people think like I do. Most of our enemies do as well...only in some cases (the PRC, Muslim terrorists, etc) even more so. Oh, I understand, whenever we take a hit, you'll complain that it was our fault - there are always those who do...but you'll notice how the rest of us just ignore them...in the meanwhile it might do you some good to study a little military history, just to get some idea of the manner in which important military decisions are made. I think you may find it enlightening.

[Dark Knight]

You're right. It is a relatively modern developement that allows us to target military objects with such accuracy. Judging history through those ideals is counterproductive.

Also, in the current war on terror, terrorist tactics are bringing back civillian casualties as a warring method. I would expect some of the other attitudes, tactics and strategies to return also. Being enlightened is easy, until a car bomb goes off in your neighborhood.

DK

[Skywarner]

As the son of someone who served with the 509th Composite Air Group on Tinian (and who knew Sweeney), my thoughts and prayers go out to the General and his family.

My father was an aviation mechanic in the 509th. He passed away late last year.

One by one, the unit is once again reuniting.

Rest in Peace General.

[fso301]

Saw the plane at the AF museum in Dayton, OH.

[Brian Allen]

<< War is too serious to let sentiment guide action.

I have studied the Japanese decision to surrender in 1945. I have lived in Japan after the war and am to an extent socialized to the Japanese people. I am convinced that the atomic bombings were necessary to avoid invasion.

The Japanese Army was the center of national life in those days and was resolved upon death. Also remember that the Red Army going to invade as well as Americans. >>

Thanks for that.

The Red Army, though, did invade -- and is still in residence.

And ever-overlooked by all of the bed-wetters, American, Japanese and those comprising the the rest of the world's hesperophobics, is that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagisaki -- and not to forget the fire-bombing of Tokyo -- also saved -- along with those of the half-million of so Americans and our Allies who'd have fallen -- the lives of the many millions of Japanese who would have perished as Tojo's and Hirohito's fellow death-cultists saw them dead before admitting defeat.

[Which, by the way, neither Tojo nor Hirohito ever did!]

And then there was the wonderful old-fashioned idea that a war is not won until there is a clear loser.

FRom which noble tenet were forged, from the ashes of the absolute destruction of abjectly-death-cultist barbarism, two modern civilized nations: Japan and Germany.

Oh for such an American Man as was Mr Truman -- and were such of his warriors at Charles W Sweeny -- to so lead us in barbarism's present all-out assault upon our nation -- and upon the very civilization we have so long vanguarded.

Vale, Charlie Sweeny

BUMPping

[ChevyZ28]

As I read your post, I can not believe what I have read. The Japanese military was indeed prepared to fight to the death. When using Kamikaze attacks, the Japanese commanders ordered that the cock pit canopies be riveted shut, so the pilots could not jump out. I wonder, does this sound like a group that was in the process of simply capitulating to you? I can tell you it most certainly does not sound like a group just a short time from surrendering to me. There was in fact, all kinds of evidence found after the war was over, how the Japanese Government had been preparing even its unarmed citizenry to attack any invaders on the Japanese soil using garden rakes, shovels, any thing they could get their hands on to fight with.

I agree, to use nuclear weapons to end the war was a very tragic, and sad event in history. However, the bloody aftermath created during a massive land invasion of Japan would have been far bloodier, lasted much longer and would have brought a much less desirable result for both Americans and Japanese a like. To the Japanese, dying would have been better than admitting defeat and surrendering.

In closing, I would like to point the following out. I would much rather have all of our disputes with foreign powers to be ended without war or combat. Unfortunately, there are some governments and groups who simply will not sit and talk or look for a compromise beneficial to all parties involved. Truly, our world is a world governed by the aggressive use of force. The only way to end war, is to soundly and completely defeat our enemies once and for all. There will never be world peace in its truest form until Jesus Christ splits the eastern sky and takes this world over for eternity.

[KangarooJacqui]

Tearful bump... and a salute from an Allied nation that is eternally grateful.

The Japanese had to be stopped, and this stopped them...

[KangarooJacqui]

Thoughtful post... I liked your reasoning. Thanks for contributing to this thread.

[RightWhale]

Both targets were military targets. Production of atomic bombs had begun. Within three months bombs would have dropped at the rate of one every week or two. Later they would have been used in groups of three to establish beachheads.