Posted on 07/09/2004 9:19:09 AM PDT by tpaine
"I didn't know making moonshine was a self-evident inalianable human right. A state does indeed have that power, since it's not enumerated." tpaine quoting H.Akston
"thus your ignorance on the subject of unenumerated rights is obvious" - tpaine flailing vainly and insanely against H.Akston
Enumerated rights? I was talking about enumerated powers - those are the ones given up by the States, to the US. Read carefully and you'll see the word "power", not "rights".
As of the 21st Amendment, States reserve the power to outlaw the manufacture of intoxicating liqors.
Here's a quote from Federalist 39 that should help you understand the context in which I used the word "enumerated":
"In this relation, then, the proposed government cannot be deemed a NATIONAL one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignty over all other objects."
When you call someone ignorant, try to know what you're talking about. I know it's hard for you. I'm a patient teacher though.
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Babbling on does not change our Constitutions BOR's restrictions on our States, hugh.
I suggest you learn to live with them.
Again, I don't deny this. We're in agreement that the Constitution requires CA judges to adhere to the the 2nd Amendment.
Our Constitution requires CA judges to adhere to ALL of our Amendments & ALL of our rights, enumerated or not. -- You are irrationally denying that clear fact, hugh.
I didn't know making moonshine was a self-evident inalianable human right. A state does indeed have that power, since it's not enumerated.
We have the right to preserve food by making booze, beer or wine from our surplus corn, fruit or whatever; -- thus your ignorance on the subject of unenumerated rights is obvious.
Our self evident inalienable human rights are the same in any State of our Union. So says our supremacy clause & BOR's.
A state also has the power to outlaw prostitution. Many states do, but Nevadans might think it's an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses.
No hugh, States have the power to reasonably ~regulate~ the commercial aspects of prostitution. It's an unavoidable fact of life hugh, that a woman has an inalienable right to make money from using her body as she so chooses. -- We all do. --- The State can only TRY to regulate the more commercial aspects of such 'sinful' behavior.
It can't win, because individual rights get in its way.
-----------------------------------
This exchange above is where you started your prostitution rant.
-- Unable to win your point on booze prohibition, you've switched to insisting that prohibitions on prostitution make your point.
In effect, you're insisting that "A state has the power to outlaw prostitution", because it's NOT "an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses."
-- Even though you admit that in Nevada, a woman does have "an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses."
Hugh, I suggest you think a bit more about the logic of your position.
VA, WV, NC, and SC have all outlawed prostitution, which means they have made prostitution illegal.
Yet you admit that -- "Nevadans might think it's an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses."
-- You can't 'outlaw' an inalienable right, hughie, you can only regulate the public aspects of such behaviors.
It doesn't mean they have "regulated" it. "Regulating" something means you tolerate the practice, but control it. Making something illegal, that is "outlawing" it, means you don't tolerate it at all. Many states have outlawed prostitution, constitutionally and legally.
Nope, not constitutionally. As you admitted earlier, you can't peep in bedrooms to enforce such 'laws'. ~That~ is illegal.
As of the 21st Amendment, States reserve the power to outlaw the manufacture of intoxicating liqors.
They do? Are you seeing a penumbra? That power is not in the 21st, hughie. Only the transportation or importation is prohibited, IF contrary to valid, constitutional State laws.
When you call someone ignorant, try to know what you're talking about. I know it's hard for you. I'm a patient teacher though.
How amusing. Your self puffery as a 'teacher' is ignorance personified.
here's a recap of the essence of why you are wrong:
A state also has the power to outlaw prostitution. - H.Akston
"No hugh" - tpaine
You are reduced to claiming that no state can outlaw prostitution! - H.Akston
"That is a constitutional fact." - tpaine
West Virginia has outlawed prostitution. - H.Akston
West Virginia Code:
§61-8-5. (b) Any person who shall engage in prostitution, ... shall, upon conviction for the first offense under this section, be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not less than sixty days nor more than six months, and by a fine of not less than fifty dollars and not to exceed one hundred dollars; and upon conviction for the second offense ... a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and not to exceed two hundred fifty dollars, and upon conviction for any subsequent offense ...not less than one year nor more than three years.
"The State of Va gets its power to write criminal law from its 'police power', hughie. " - tpaine
WVa's police power comes from the WV Constitution. - H.Akston, teacher of tpaine.
West Virginia Constitution:
"Among the powers so reserved to the states is the exclusive regulation of their own internal government and police;" - Article I-2
http://www.terranova.net/Sheriffs-Report/
The owner of an county-wide escort business run out of a home on Big Pine Key pled guilty May 27th to four misdemeanor charges and two felony charges relating to his occupation. 48 year old Michael Knezevich, owner of the Heavenly Bodies Escort Service, was arrested April 14th after he was caught during a prostitution sting in Marathon. He was charged with forcing a person to become a prostitute, deriving support from the proceeds of prostitution, offering to procure a person for the purpose of prostitution and with transporting a person for the purpose of prostitution. Sheriff's detectives with the Special Investigations Division were investigating a number of complaints from citizens about the escort service operated by Knezevich, and other escort businesses operating in the County. On April 28th, detectives served a search warrant at his home on Lobstertail Road on Big Pine Key. They found evidence that he was operating the escort service from that location, and found recording devices set up in several areas where it appears he may have been video taping sexual encounters without the knowledge of his partners. They also found two firearms in the house. At the time, Knezevich had a restraining order filed against him which prohibited him from possessing firearms, so he was charged with contempt of court and the guns were seized. He appeared in court on May 27th and pled guilty to a total of four misdemeanor charges and two felony charges. He was sentenced to 10 days in the county jail and received four years of probation. As a part of the plea agreement, he must also sell his home and move out of the county within 90 days. One of the conditions of his probation is that he not engage in any type of escort business and that he have no contact with any victims or witnesses in the cases in question.
"Such laws [outlawing prostitution] cannot be enforced without violations of other individual rights." - tpaine
Nonsense. "Such laws" were enforced in Monroe County WVA with due process of law and all individual rights were protected.
VA, WV, NC, and SC have all outlawed prostitution, which means they have made prostitution illegal. It doesn't mean they have "regulated" it. "Regulating" something means you tolerate the practice, but control it. Making something illegal, that is "outlawing" it, means you don't tolerate it at all. Many states have outlawed prostitution, constitutionally and legally.
"As you admitted earlier, you can't peep in bedrooms to enforce such 'laws'"
That was in the context of no probable cause.
"Regulating" something means you tolerate the practice, but control it, tax it, discourage it, whatever. Making something illegal, that is "outlawing" it, means you don't tolerate it at all. Many states have outlawed prostitution, constitutionally and legally.
States have the power to reasonably ~regulate~ the commercial aspects of prostitution.
It's an unavoidable fact of life hugh, that a woman has an inalienable right to make money from using her body as she so chooses. -- We all do. --- The State can only TRY to regulate the more commercial aspects of such 'sinful' behavior.
It can't win, because individual rights get in its way.
No, I admitted that the people of Nevada may have decided that it's an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses. They may also have decided that it's just a privilege. Or, they might have decided that it's just an ordinary (alienable) right.
It's their 10th Amendment right to decide those things. They have the power to either outlaw, or to legalize, prostitution. They've chosen to legalize it, in at least a county or two.
Other States have decided to outlaw it. (as we see in West Virginia's code.) Obviously, in those states, they have decided that it's not an unalienable right for a woman to be a prostitute. I'm willing to let states decide these things for themselves.
"-- Unable to win your point on booze prohibition, you've switched to insisting that prohibitions on prostitution make your point. "
The booze thing is not as straightforward as prostitution, for teaching about 10th Amendment reserved powers. Me changing the subject was for illustration purposes, not because of any supposed inability to win my point. It was also easier to find examples of states outlawing prostitution, than from outlawing liqor, but the principle is the same. I like to make things as clear as possible for my students. Especially the earnest ones like you. States have the power to outlaw liquor production (making moonshine).
Have a look at the second section of the 21st:
The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.
"In violation of the laws thereof" is the key phrase. The laws of the state, are in control here, not the Federal govt. The 21st Amendment clearly gives the states the power to prohibit, or to not prohibit booze. In this way, it is somewhat redundant, because the 10th Amendment already accomplishes that.
"Hugh, I suggest you think a bit more about the logic of your position."
Rest assured, my position is logical. I'm not the one who confuses the words "regulate" and "outlaw", and forgets ("You can't constitutionally prohibit an "unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses"; just as you admitted earlier." - tpaine) that search warrants can be used to enforce laws against prostitution, without violating 4th Amendment rights.
Above, you admit that "Nevadans might think it's an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses."
No, I admitted that the people of Nevada may have decided that it's an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses.
Specious. -- Begging of the question.
They may also have decided that it's just a privilege. Or, they might have decided that it's just an ordinary (alienable) right.
'Majority will' does not decide what our rights are, hughie. We ALL have the same inalienable rights to life, liberty, & property in every State in this Union.
It's their 10th Amendment right to decide those things.
You imagine the 10th gives a majority the power to decide what are "ordinary (alienable) rights"? - And, -- what are inalienable rights?
You've gone totally bonkers, hughie. -- In effect you are again defending CA's 'power' to 'outlaw' assault weapons
They have the power to either outlaw, or to legalize, prostitution. They've chosen to legalize it, in at least a county or two. Other States have decided to outlaw it. (as we see in West Virginia's code.) Obviously, in those states, they have decided that it's not an unalienable right for a woman to be a prostitute. I'm willing to let states decide these things for themselves.
Yada yada. You are willing to say anything, take any position, to 'teach' your loony statist visons about empowering prohibitory 'laws'.
___________________________________
-- Unable to win your point on booze prohibition, you've switched to insisting that prohibitions on prostitution make your point.
The booze thing is not as straightforward as prostitution, for teaching about 10th Amendment reserved powers. Me changing the subject was for illustration purposes, not because of any supposed inability to win my point. It was also easier to find examples of states outlawing prostitution, than from outlawing liqor, but the principle is the same.
I like to make things as clear as possible for my students.
Hugh, get real. You have no students here at FR. You've become a joke with your illogical, contradictory rants.
States have the power to outlaw liquor production (making moonshine). Have a look at the second section of the 21st: The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited. "In violation of the laws thereof" is the key phrase. The laws of the state, are in control here, not the Federal govt. The 21st Amendment clearly gives the states the power to prohibit, or to not prohibit booze. In this way, it is somewhat redundant, because the 10th Amendment already accomplishes that.
The States have the power to regulate "transportation or importation", -- not the individual right to make or use beer/wine/spirits for personal non-commercial use. -- Get your blue nose out of other peoples business hugh. -- And I suggest you think a bit more about the logic of your position.
Rest assured, my position is logical. I'm not the one who confuses the words "regulate" and "outlaw", and forgets ("You can't constitutionally prohibit an "unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses"; just as you admitted earlier." - tpaine) that search warrants can be used to enforce laws against prostitution, without violating 4th Amendment rights.
Babble on hughie. Thanks for the entertainment.
"Hugh, get real. You have no students here at FR. You've become a joke with your illogical, contradictory rants." - tpaine
Most FRs are well educated already. I spend the most time with those who need it most. You're one of my most needy pupils.
"'Majority will' does not decide what our rights are, hughie. We ALL have the same inalienable rights to life, liberty, & property in every State in this Union."
In some states, like in WV, you don't have the right to be a prostitute. Is this a violation of inalienable rights? Or was that right taken away by "due process"?
In some states, like in WV, you don't have the right to be a prostitute.
Not true. You have a right to make a damm fool of yourself in ANY State. -- And when you violate a constitutional law, you pay the price.
Is this a violation of inalienable rights? Or was that right taken away by "due process"?
In its discussion of the scope of "liberty" protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment the USSC once stated:
"Neither the Bill of Rights nor the specific practices of the States at the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment marks the outer limits of the substantive sphere of liberty which the Fourteenth Amendment protects."
See U.S. Const., Amend. 9.
As the second Justice Harlan recognized:
"The full scope of the liberty guaranteed by the Due Process Clause `cannot be found in or limited by the precise terms of the specific guarantees elsewhere provided in the Constitution.
This `liberty´ is not a series of isolated points pricked out in terms of the taking of property;
the freedom of speech, press, and religion;
the right to keep and bear arms;
the freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures; and so on.
It is a rational continuum which, broadly speaking, includes a freedom from all substantial arbitrary impositions and purposeless restraints" . .
Attempts to 'outlaw' consensual sex between adults are "arbitrary & purposeless", hughie. -- Learn to live with our constitutional freedoms.
Get your blue nose out of your neighbors business.
In some states, like in WV, you don't have the right to be a prostitute. - H.Akston
"Not true. You have a right to make a damm fool of yourself in ANY State" - tpaine
And on Free Republic, as you have thoroughly done in this thread.
You keep your grubby hands off the States you don't live in.
In some states, like in WV, you don't have the right to be a prostitute.
Is this a violation of inalienable rights? Or was that right taken away by "due process"?
450 Hughie
______________________________________
"The full scope of the liberty guaranteed by Due Process --
-- is a rational continuum which, broadly speaking, includes a freedom from all substantial arbitrary impositions and purposeless restraints" . .
Attempts to 'outlaw' consensual sex between adults are "arbitrary & purposeless", hughie. -- Learn to live with our constitutional freedoms.
Get your blue nose out of your neighbors business.
451 tpaine
______________________________________
You keep your grubby hands off the States you don't live in.
452 hughie
______________________________________
Better 'grubby hands' defending liberty in free States, -- than blue nosed clowns trying to outlaw 'sin'.
"than blue nosed clowns trying to outlaw 'sin'."
And who would that be?
"Attempts to 'outlaw' consensual sex between adults are "arbitrary & purposeless", hughie."
There are a few exceptions, as in the case of prostitution where if money is traded for consensual sex, it's a crime.
Learn to live with Constitutional (e.g. 10th Amendment) Freedoms, and get your blue nose out of your neighboring states' business.
here's a recap of the essence of why you are wrong:
A state also has the power to outlaw prostitution. - H.Akston
"No hugh" - tpaine
You are reduced to claiming that no state can outlaw prostitution! - H.Akston
"That is a constitutional fact." - tpaine
West Virginia has outlawed prostitution. - H.Akston
West Virginia Code:
§61-8-5. (b) Any person who shall engage in prostitution, ... shall, upon conviction for the first offense under this section, be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not less than sixty days nor more than six months, and by a fine of not less than fifty dollars and not to exceed one hundred dollars; and upon conviction for the second offense ... a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and not to exceed two hundred fifty dollars, and upon conviction for any subsequent offense ...not less than one year nor more than three years.
"The State of Va gets its power to write criminal law from its 'police power', hughie. " - tpaine
WVa's police power comes from the WV Constitution. - H.Akston, teacher of tpaine.
West Virginia Constitution:
"Among the powers so reserved to the states is the exclusive regulation of their own internal government and police;" - Article I-2
http://www.terranova.net/Sheriffs-Report/
The owner of an county-wide escort business run out of a home on Big Pine Key pled guilty May 27th to four misdemeanor charges and two felony charges relating to his occupation. 48 year old Michael Knezevich, owner of the Heavenly Bodies Escort Service, was arrested April 14th after he was caught during a prostitution sting in Marathon. He was charged with forcing a person to become a prostitute, deriving support from the proceeds of prostitution, offering to procure a person for the purpose of prostitution and with transporting a person for the purpose of prostitution. Sheriff's detectives with the Special Investigations Division were investigating a number of complaints from citizens about the escort service operated by Knezevich, and other escort businesses operating in the County. On April 28th, detectives served a search warrant at his home on Lobstertail Road on Big Pine Key. They found evidence that he was operating the escort service from that location, and found recording devices set up in several areas where it appears he may have been video taping sexual encounters without the knowledge of his partners. They also found two firearms in the house. At the time, Knezevich had a restraining order filed against him which prohibited him from possessing firearms, so he was charged with contempt of court and the guns were seized. He appeared in court on May 27th and pled guilty to a total of four misdemeanor charges and two felony charges. He was sentenced to 10 days in the county jail and received four years of probation. As a part of the plea agreement, he must also sell his home and move out of the county within 90 days. One of the conditions of his probation is that he not engage in any type of escort business and that he have no contact with any victims or witnesses in the cases in question.
"Such laws [outlawing prostitution] cannot be enforced without violations of other individual rights." - tpaine
Nonsense. "Such laws" were enforced in Monroe County WVA with due process of law and all individual rights were protected.
VA, WV, NC, GA, AL, MI, FL, MD, PA, NY, MA, ME, VT, NH, RI, DE, NJ IL, IA, IN, KY, TN, OH, MI, UT, WA, CA, TX and SC have all outlawed prostitution, which means they have made prostitution illegal in all or most of their counties. It doesn't mean they have "regulated" it. "Regulating" something means you tolerate the practice, but control it. Making something illegal, that is "outlawing" it, means you don't tolerate it at all. Many states have outlawed prostitution, constitutionally and legally.
To: H.Akston; Bozo
In some states, like in WV, you don't have the right to be a prostitute.
Is this a violation of inalienable rights? Or was that right taken away by "due process"?
450 Hughie
______________________________________
"The full scope of the liberty guaranteed by Due Process --
-- is a rational continuum which, broadly speaking, includes a freedom from all substantial arbitrary impositions and purposeless restraints" . .
Attempts to 'outlaw' consensual sex between adults are "arbitrary & purposeless", hughie. -- Learn to live with our constitutional freedoms.
Get your blue nose out of your neighbors business.
451 tpaine
______________________________________
You keep your grubby hands off the States you don't live in.
452 hughie
______________________________________
Better 'grubby hands' defending liberty in free States, -- than blue nosed clowns trying to outlaw 'sin'.
453 tpaine
______________________________________
And who would that be?
454 hughie
______________________________________
That would be you. -- And the bozos like you.
There are a few exceptions, as in the case of prostitution where if money is traded for consensual sex, it's a crime.
VA, WV, NC, GA, AL, MI, FL, MD, PA, NY, MA, ME, VT, NH, RI, DE, NJ IL, IA, IN, KY, TN, OH, MI, UT, WA, CA, TX and SC have all outlawed [trading money for consensual sex], --
-- which means they have made [trading money for consensual sex] illegal in all or most of their counties.
It doesn't mean they have "regulated" it. "Regulating" something means you tolerate the practice, but control it. Making something illegal, that is "outlawing" it, means you don't tolerate it at all.
Many states have outlawed [trading money for consensual sex], constitutionally and legally.
No hugie, IF they have outlawed the private aspects of "trading money for consensual sex", between willing adults it is unconstitutional.
If they are reasonably regulating the public & commercial aspects of "trading money for consensual sex", those States are acting within their constitutionally mandated 'police powers'.
There are no constitutional exceptions.
Learn to live with our 10th Amendment constitutional freedoms. Get your blue nose out of your neighboring states' business.
Prostitution is trading money for consensual sex.
Many states have outlawed it. Pull your head out.
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