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The U.S. Constitution [Misinterpreted] Online
USConstitution.net ^ | 4/9/04 | steve mount

Posted on 07/09/2004 9:19:09 AM PDT by tpaine

This website very insidiously interprets our US Constitution in a pro-Statist manner. IE --- "The Bill of Rights did not apply to the states."

"The Bill of Rights was understood, at its ratification, to be a bar on the actions of the federal government.
Many people today find this to be an incredible fact. The fact is, prior to incorporation, discussed below, the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states."

It is incredible, seeing the author completely ignores the supremacy clause in Art. VI.

He then goes on to bash our 2nd Amendment:

"Recognizing that the need to arm the populace as a militia is no longer of much concern, but also realizing that firearms are a part of our history and culture and are used by many for both personal defense and sport, this site has proposed a new 2nd Amendment - an amendment to replace the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution. This proposed text is offered as a way to spark discussion of the topic.

Section 1. The second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
Section 2. The right of the people to keep arms reasonable for hunting, sport, collecting, and personal defense shall not be infringed.

Section 3. Restrictions of arms must be found to be reasonable under Section 2 by a two-thirds vote of Congress in two consecutive sessions of Congress before they can be forwarded to the President for approval.

This proposed amendment is a truer representation of how our society views our freedom to bear arms. Because "reasonableness" can be far too elastic, the two-Congress restriction requires that two Congresses in a row pass the same bill - this allows both thoughtful reflection and for the opinions of the people, to be expressed between these votes, to be heard (both at the ballot box and in general). It is an unusual, but not unprecedented, way of passing legislation.
Finally, the courts would have the ultimate authority in determining if a restriction is not reasonable, providing a final layer of protection (after the two pairs of debate in the House and Senate and the President's own agreement). The militia is removed from the equation, greatly clarifying the purpose of the amendment.

Historical note: in Section 2, the "collecting" clause was added, and Section 3 is a replacement for "The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation" after concerns over "reasonableness" were examined more fully.


Reasonable restrictions do seem to be the way to go, acknowledging the Amendment, but molding it, as we've done with much of the Constitution.
After all, we have freedom of speech in the United States, but you are not truly free to say whatever you wish. You cannot incite violence without consequence; you cannot libel someone without consequence; you cannot shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater without consequence. Why cannot gun ownership by similarly regulated without violating the Constitution?
The trick is finding that balance between freedom and reasonable regulation. Gun ownership is indeed a right - but it is also a grand responsibility. With responsibility comes the interests of society to ensure that guns are used safely and are used by those with proper training and licensing. If we can agree on this simple premise, it should not be too difficult to work out the details and find a proper compromise."

Know you enemy.. This man Steve Mount is NOT a friend of our Constitution.

(Excerpt) Read more at usconstitution.net ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; usconstitution
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201 posted on 07/13/2004 7:32:21 PM PDT by StriperSniper ("Ronald Reagan, the Founding Father of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy." - Mark Levin 6/8/04)
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To: tpaine
You do hate that link, don't you tpaine. Why is that?

The Squalid 14th Amendment

202 posted on 07/13/2004 7:52:29 PM PDT by H.Akston
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To: H.Akston

Bizzare comment akston, why do you imagine I hate that thread? I've had it bookmarked since it first ran.


203 posted on 07/13/2004 10:18:14 PM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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To: tpaine

Because you love Big Central.


204 posted on 07/14/2004 5:14:43 AM PDT by H.Akston (uncompensated emancipation makes the master the slave and the state the master)
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To: tpaine

"It is incredible, seeing the author completely ignores the supremacy clause in Art. VI. "

at least you learned something from our past conversations.


205 posted on 07/14/2004 5:18:35 AM PDT by H.Akston (uncompensated emancipation makes the master the slave and the state the master)
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To: H.Akston
That's funny, the only time I've ever really seen tpaine "love" big centralized government was when it was protecting our Rights as ennumerated in the BoR from intrusion at any level. I've never seen him support Federal control over local schools for instance. Or highway and local road construction. Or national requirements for speed limits. Or the Drug War. and the list goes on.

Why do you Nanny Staters have such a hard on for taking away peoples freedom? Do you really believe that there should be no common set of "freedoms" and "Rights" that ALL US Citizens should enjoy?

206 posted on 07/14/2004 6:08:20 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: H.Akston
On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823

Stop trying to squeeze more meaning out of the words than are written.

207 posted on 07/14/2004 6:12:44 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: H.Akston
"No State could deny a right to bear arms, given the above clause."

But they are.

And the courts, both state and federal, have said that the above clause does not apply to the second amensment.

208 posted on 07/14/2004 6:57:48 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
And the courts, both state and federal, have said that the above clause does not apply to the second amensment.

And those courts that have done so are wrong. Very wrong. There is no clause in the Constitution that says that "this is Supreme, accept for the Second Amendment". We shouldn't have NEEDED something like the 14th. Idiots like you are why they tried.

...any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Where the FedGov was GIVEN power, it is Supreme. The problem of course being that legislators are always trying to find ways around it to gain more power. Hence todays out of control FedGov upsurping State power in ways they were never meant to, and in fact we were warned against.

Efforts to disarm "We the People" were one of those things we were warned about. NFA '34, GCA '68, and the Brady Bill are all blatant violations of the Second. They are quite clearly "infringements" by any reasonable definition. Local and State statutes violate the Second through the Supremacy clause. Unless someone has dug up another definition of "Supreme"? Only when called up for militia duty does our Right to Keep and Bear Arms become subject to "regulation". Only then because you would then be acting in a Militia capacity and expected to follow the orders of your Officers.

You've used every device, including outright lies, to try and push your position. Just admit you hate guns and would prefer to see the Second Amendment repealed.

209 posted on 07/14/2004 7:31:24 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Dead Corpse
"Where the FedGov was GIVEN power, it is Supreme."

"NFA '34, GCA '68, and the Brady Bill are all blatant violations of the Second."

How do you do this, Dead Corpse? You conflict yourself in the same post.

The above legislation was found constitutional -- they are SUPREME, just like you want. The above legislation was never even challenged as a violation of the second amendment, ever.

210 posted on 07/14/2004 7:56:12 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: Dead Corpse
"There is no clause in the Constitution that says that "this is Supreme, accept for the Second Amendment"."

No, just as there is no clause saying that abortion is legal.

Did you actually look for such a clause, Dead Corpse? Were you paging through the U.S. Constitution, mumbling, "Now, where is it?" Unbelievable that this is your argument.

No clause is necessary to say that an amendment which is ONLY applicable to the federal government is not applicable to the states. It's just common sense, Dead Corpse.

211 posted on 07/14/2004 8:02:12 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
And the courts, both state and federal, have said that the above clause does not apply to the second amensment.

Yes it never ceases to amaze me how a judge can weasel around the plain meaning of the written word.

The Constitution says the judges in every state shall be bound to everything the Constitution says, that it supersedes any contradictory state law, and yet some judges say that a state can contradict the 2nd amendment.

We don't impeach enough judges.

212 posted on 07/14/2004 8:03:23 AM PDT by H.Akston (uncompensated emancipation makes the master the slave and the state the master)
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To: robertpaulsen
The above legislation was found constitutional

You have yet to explain how it can be "found" Constitutional when the clear language of the Constitution says otherwise.

You contradict YOURSELF in your post. You first say it was "found Constitutional", then continue on to say it has never been tested.

My entire point is that such legislation should never have been passed in any form to begin with. The US Constitution makes it quite clear that no infringements are lawful. Period. A simple Law cannot be more "powerful" than the document that gives the government its power in teh first place. That would be like saying water has more solidity than ice.

I should have known better than to get a straight answer out of you. Tell us truthfully, do you work for Ted Kennedy? Or Charles Schumer?

213 posted on 07/14/2004 8:03:33 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: H.Akston
H.Akston wrote:
Because you love Big Central

______________________________________


Belied by my words on the 'Squalid' thread, and your response:

______________________________________

To: H.Akston

Socialists have control of both major parties, the federal, and the state governments.
They appoint the judges. They write the unconstitutional laws.
Yet you sit here and howl that the 14th amendment is the cause of all our troubles. -- Get real.
-- The only problem with the constitution, [barring the 16th] is the fools you elected, that ignore it.
Two bits you would ignore it yourself. Do you stand with texasforever, and support californias 'right' to prohibit arms?
80 tpaine


______________________________________


LMAO Tpaine just had another brain fart. I support the rights of the people of any state to elect to their own state representatives that reflect the views of those that bother to get off their lazy butts and vote.

As I said, the citizens of California elected gun grabbers and yhey grabbed your guns. Tough Sh!t Tpaine. If you think I have sympathy with you over that think again.
84 Posted on 08/03/2001 20:51:56 PDT by Texasforever


______________________________________



To: Texasforever

One thing that we should keep in mind, is the fact that simply because of the 14th, and its evil spawn - the 17th, people don't give a damn who they send to their state legislatures any more, because they have no real power. Any clown/Condit will do. So you get asinine state laws like that infringe on the right to bear arms.

Along this line, though Tpaine, if a state voted to establish a religion, or even ban free speech, say before an election, I would support it, because only Congress can violate the first amendment.

Only Congress is restrained by it. At some point you just have to trust a state not to do stupid things like limit free speech.
87 H.Akston
214 posted on 07/14/2004 8:03:50 AM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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To: robertpaulsen
It's just common sense...

Obviously it isn't as you keep ignoring the "Supremem Law of the Land" portion of the Constitution.

And I hav efrequently stated the abortion, like murder, is a State issue... not a Federal one.

You are such an ass...

215 posted on 07/14/2004 8:05:11 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: H.Akston; Texasforever
H.Akston wrote:
Because you love Big Central

______________________________________


Belied by my words on the 'Squalid' thread, and your response:

______________________________________

To: H.Akston

Socialists have control of both major parties, the federal, and the state governments.
They appoint the judges. They write the unconstitutional laws.
Yet you sit here and howl that the 14th amendment is the cause of all our troubles. -- Get real.
-- The only problem with the constitution, [barring the 16th] is the fools you elected, that ignore it.
Two bits you would ignore it yourself. Do you stand with texasforever, and support californias 'right' to prohibit arms?
80 tpaine


______________________________________


LMAO Tpaine just had another brain fart. I support the rights of the people of any state to elect to their own state representatives that reflect the views of those that bother to get off their lazy butts and vote.

As I said, the citizens of California elected gun grabbers and yhey grabbed your guns. Tough Sh!t Tpaine. If you think I have sympathy with you over that think again.
84 Posted on 08/03/2001 20:51:56 PDT by Texasforever


______________________________________



To: Texasforever

One thing that we should keep in mind, is the fact that simply because of the 14th, and its evil spawn - the 17th, people don't give a damn who they send to their state legislatures any more, because they have no real power. Any clown/Condit will do. So you get asinine state laws like that infringe on the right to bear arms.

Along this line, though Tpaine, if a state voted to establish a religion, or even ban free speech, say before an election, I would support it, because only Congress can violate the first amendment.

Only Congress is restrained by it. At some point you just have to trust a state not to do stupid things like limit free speech.
87 H.Akston ______________________________________ Whoops! Forgot to flag Tex.
216 posted on 07/14/2004 8:06:08 AM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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To: H.Akston
We don't impeach enough judges.

Impeachment would be a good start. Considering the make up of our State and Federal Legislatures, and how long it takes them to get ANYTHING done, not too mention their unwillingness to remove someone working to expand their legislative reach,... it could be more efficious in the long run to just bring back tar and feathering.

Remember that only around 5% of the American Colonists rose up against the King.

217 posted on 07/14/2004 8:07:41 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: H.Akston

It's pretty obvious you never learn anything, hugh.


218 posted on 07/14/2004 8:09:12 AM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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To: tpaine

Did you really have to flag him in? The guy makes me ashamed to be living in Texas.


219 posted on 07/14/2004 8:10:08 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Dead Corpse; Texasforever; H.Akston
Sorry bout that.. But he usually doesn't respond anyway.
The 'Squalid' thread was a major embarrassment for both tex & akston. I'd guess that Hugh had forgotten how dated his rants sound.
220 posted on 07/14/2004 8:25:06 AM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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