Massive Black Hole Stumps Researchers

Space.com ^ | June 28, 2004 | Tariq Malik

[longshadow]

supermassive ping

[Consort]

A team of astronomers have found a colossal black hole so ancient, they're not sure how it had enough time to grow to its current size,...

It had enough time because it's ancient. Mystery solved. Next thread.

[RockyMtnMan]

It's almost as big as the super massive black hole that is our federal government.

[Friend of thunder]

It had enough time because it's ancient

LOL. Very well said.

[NRA2BFree]

Ping!

[Friend of thunder]

Nice tag line!

[skinkinthegrass]

Is it bigger than mmoore?

..its' only slightly bigger...esp. his Ego. :P

[jpsb]

Bump for a read tomorrow

[Ciexyz]

Any chance we could force Michael Moore into a space ship and aim him in that direction?

[Physicist]

If you allow for the electrical structure of matter, the almost 2,000 fold difference in mass of the electron and proton will ensure that in a strong gravitational field charge separation will operate to prevent compression. Charge separation prevents the collapse of stars.

Here's where that argument fails. Suppose I have a bunch of protons and electrons, and I compress them. The problem is that, while the entire mass may be electrically neutral, the protons (all having the same charge) aren't comfortable sitting right next to each other. It takes energy to get them to do that. Now, a proton can combine with an electron to form a neutron, and protons and neutrons are very comfortable sitting right next to each other. But to form a neutron requires energy, too.

Here's the trick: as you put more and more protons closer and closer together, it takes more and more energy to add each successive one. At SOME point, it requires less energy to form a neutron out of an electron and a proton, than it does to cram one more proton into the bunch. Since nature takes the path of least resistance, that is what happens. In fact, when that condition is reached (and with an assist from gravitational collapse), it becomes energetically favorable for all of the protons to convert into neutrons, so that is what they do, catastrophically, in a type 1A supernova.

Ah, but you say: the neutron is itself composed of charged particles. What about the charge separation inside the neutron? The experimental reality is that the electric dipole moment of the neutron is exquisitely close to zero. In fact, nobody has ever been able to measure an electric dipole moment for the neutron that is not consistent with zero.

[Geek alert: This is also expected for deep theoretical reasons. A non-zero electric dipole moment for the neutron would be a direct violation of CP invariance. The Standard Model of Particle Physics predicts this value to be exactly zero, but many extensions to the Standard Model predict a tiny non-zero value. Several theories have been killed by failing this prediction.]

[Joe Hadenuf]

Consider all the worlds Thy hands have made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder.Thy power throughout the universe displayed."

You may see some of the stars, but you won't ever see a black hole.

[NRA2BFree]

Nice tag line!

Thanks! :-)

[Intolerant in NJ]

The effect for which there is no cause.....

[Frank_2001]

LOL

[microgood]

OK. That explanation makes some sense to me. I am not an astronomer or scientist by any stretch of the imagination. It makes more sense when I realize that the energy being emitted does not come from the black hole per se, but from around it.

Wow, our federal government is designed like a black hole.

[CzarNicky]

LOL you owe me a new keyboard

[BenLurkin]

"A non-zero electric dipole moment for the neutron would be a direct violation of CP invariance"

Oh . . boy do I feel dumb!

[CzarNicky]

It would be interesting to see which would eat which first.

[stylin_geek]

Not by much, although Moore may be slightly more dense.

[ExpandNATO]

The simplest explanation of Hawking radiation is simply that the border of the black hole is not fixed at the quantum level, but is constantly wiggling/vibrating. A particle can suddenly find itself outside the black hole, not because it somehow escaped, but rather because the border moved.

Second attempt, in the quantum world particles can and do go from one state to another without going through what is in between (quantum effect in a tunneling diode). If there is a non-zero quantum function at a point in space, then a particle can appear there (and as Hawking notes empty space cannot have a field fixed at zero).

The source for the first paragraph was a popular science magazine and for the second my memory of long ago physics and electronics courses, so both may be completely wrong or greatly oversimplified.