U.S. Army General Dubbed Father of the Iraqi Army

Defend America ^ | June 14, 2004 | U.S. Army Sgt. Jared Zabaldo

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton hugs an Iraqi officer after reviewing Iraqi troops for the last time at Taji Military Training Base, June 10, 2004. U.S. Army photo by Sgt. Jared Zabaldo

 

~*~

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Think the Iraqis will remember General Eaton 200 years from now?

[river rat]

I wouldn't ask this "army" to cover my 12, 3, 6 or 9,,,,
Until they have made bones and fed the worms with some long toothed Islamists --- they're are totally UNPROVEN.

I should also add, UNTRUSTWORTHY..

Semper Fi

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Reassessing the ARVN

The New Iraqi Army in the summer of 2004 is about at the same stage the ARVN was in 1961. They will get better.

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

Our troops were rather rough around the edges during the American Revolution, too...and they hadn't suffered for decades under a monster.

American troops who train the Iraqi security forces admit they need training, yes, but also say they are hard-working, courageous - and grateful.

[dead]

I hope these guys have some stones.

It'd be real nice if the American boys could come home soon, knowing that these troops will ensure that their sacrifices weren't wasted.

I am not of great faith in this regard.

[river rat]

"....the same stage the ARVN was in 1961. They will get better."

I don't believe the Iraqis will have the luxury of time...

In I Corps --- we didn't really trust the ARVN with anything that impacted our security......

I guess it will be the same with this Iraqi "army"...

The closer we were to the border with Laos - the less reliable the ARVN and the more reliable the local highlands hill people ('yards) became.

Semper Fi

[Cannoneer No. 4]

I think we are ignoring a fine military resource in the Kurdish Peshmerga. They'd make a great Mike Force.

I wonder how close these comparisons are?

New Iraqi Army = ARVN

ICDC = RF/PF (RuffPuffs)

Facilities Protection Service = CIDG

[McGavin999]

You know what made the difference river rat? When they failed, they were not shot, they were not tortured, they were not shamed. They were brought together and told they can do better with a bit more training. This probably shocked the life out of these men. They will feel a loyalty to him for the rest of their lives and you know what? They will do better.

[windchime]

Bump!

[Alamo-Girl]

Bump!

[river rat]

That may be...
We're all being asked to trust and have faith in Arabs that haven't earned or justified that faith..

I believe you would win more often than not, betting against their trustworthiness....Where infidels are concerned......

These folks have been hammered since birth, to despise and blame all the evil in their lives on the "infidels"...
They have been promised paradise if they destroy the Jew or the infidel....
Going to take a lot of to convince me these folks are reliable allies...

I wouldn't want them anywhere near me until they demonstrate they're worthy of trust...
They will have to build a huge bone pile of our enemy to earn that trust...

Prudence and suspicion are key elements in staying alive, in your enemy's homeland....


Semper Fi

[river rat]

This is a typical Army brass "puff piece"...
It would have carried more weight, if they had waited until this new army had PERFORMED as advertised...

Lord knows, there have been plenty of opportunities!

I'll wait, before I applaud..

Semper Fi

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

Thanks for your insight, river rat.

It will take some time, but I have heard direct reports from our guys that the Iraqis are very motivated, appreciative of the treatment and training their receiving, courageous and hard working...a good start.

One member of the Iraqi Governing Council had 63 members of his family killed by Saddam's thugs. They have reason to start 'wobbly' - and very good reasons to fight our mutual enemies!

Please, as a civilian on the homefront, give me 'puff pieces' that rightly honor and represent our troops, truthfully relate the importance of our war efforts and the nature of this enemy, support our troops and war efforts on bad days and good. Give me reporters who were awake on 911, who sacrifice for a greater good - are willing to tell the truth about Bin Laden, expose this enemy's true cruel history and daily lies. Give me reporters who know the difference between right and wrong, SOD Rumsfeld and Baghdad Bob, President Bush and Saddam Hussein - who promote traditional American values, aren't working to intentionally undermine morale at home and abroad for the sake of a byline, paycheck, politics - vanity, power. Please give me 'puff pieces' that don't actively embolden our enemies, and endanger brave men and women who are risking their lives for others daily.

[river rat]

I'm sure what you've been told is true --- amongst at least some of this new Iraqi army...
After all, the Arab Muslim is well known to show a friendly face to a potential benefactor or a disappearing ass to a stronger force..

The motivation of the Iraqi to be free or to avenge the brutalities of the former regime - would be natural for any human with free will and courage, and should have been present BEFORE our "arrival".

So far -- the Iraqi have shown their free will by complaining that we haven't improved their life enough, and the courage to demonstrate with glee at the murder of their benefactors and liberators, KNOWING we will tolerate their insane celebration and not kill them for their behavior.

Yet, they failed to show their courage of CONVICTION to fight our "common enemy" when they've been armed, trained and accompainied by our own forces. The performance of the Iraqi "forces" in Fallujah, has also been less that complimentary -- and futher demonstates the value of an agreement struck with these genetic liars.

The Arab in this region has learned to survive by being compliant to the stronger man, for decades if not centuries.

The Arab in this region has been educated primarily in the hateful and murderous "teachings" of Islam.
The Arab in this region has been taught that life on earth is filled with grief - and that the promised life can be gained by spreading Islam and destroying the infidel...

I will be able to trust the Arab muslim -- only after Islam has gone through a "reformation" and edited to coexist with the civilized world... This "reformation" must come at the hand of the Arab - and if not forthcoming, the reformation will have to be the result of destruction from the West...

My belief is that militant Islam must be defeated .....not just an army of insane militants..
This new Iraqi Army will be the best example of the feasibility of internally driven "reformation"...
My money is moving toward many years of failure, and many more years of our continued presence with a gun at their back....

Semper Fi

[Mr. Intercept]

You are sincerely misinformed. While I agree with some of your comments, particularly about the need for reformation of Islam, I completely disagree with your vehemence on pessimistic appraisal of this fledging military force. The dynamics are immense. You are dealing with a situation in which Iraqi nationals are asked to take up arms against brothers in their eyes. Against fellow tribe mates. Against people from their region. Against fellow Muslims. The psychology isn't derived from years upon years with a gun to their heads even though this may have been a necessity given the dynamics plainly visible today. It is derived of over a thousand years of social behaviour quite different from what we traditionally accept. Training, trust and respect over a long period of time regardless of failures is going to create the force we want there. In their ability to fail and live through it will be their ability to change and become stronger.

Point 2: The majority of men and women in Iraq are Shiite. The same branch of Islam as is observed by the Iranians. It is common knowledge that an Arab will trust you with his or her life if you give them proof that you will do the same in return. Most of these people, under interrogation, will look at you like a member of their own family if you pour them a cup of tea, light them a cigarette and sit down with them to chat instead of yell. It is the custom. An Arab lets you into his house, pours you tea and you are safe. Now, this generalization said, what do you think the common response was of the Arabs in Iraq, particularly, the Shiite majority under the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, after the United States of America decided to pull out and make good on its promise to Saudi Arabia to leave after expelling the Iraqi forces from Kuwait? The consequential crack down, disappearances in the night and ultimate drop in quality of life amongst the Shiite may seriously be a reason for our current problems with creating a fan base in that region. You won't trust an Arab...(oh and all Arabs are the same blah blah blah)...is probably equally mirrored with historical proof to back this distrust by the "Arabs" in Iraq.

What we need to do now, River Rat, is accept the complicated dynamics of the arena. We need to arm ourselves with knowledge and the understanding that throwing money around isn't going to dissolve difficulties the way it does on our side of the world. We need to observe their ways of life the way they see it and we need to draw clear and distinct difference between the various groups, tribes, religions, etc that make up what you so described at "Arabs" that compose the population of Iraq.

As for the Kurds...yes, it is far safer in their part of Iraq then in any other mainly do to the effect of need and lack of historical betrayal. They don't have a whole nation of Shiite friends sitting right next to them and they experienced what couldn't be described any other way then genocide. They also have a common goal...the creation of Kurdistan and a nation right next to them that is currently infusing its special forces inside Iraq to possibly help this goal from coming to fruition.

Lastly. As for the reformation of Islam. I seem to recall that that horrible anti-semite Martin Luther drew up his reformation and attacked a single entity called the Catholic Church. Now, the Catholic Church and "All of Islam" have something of a huge difference being that . . . there was and is a single authority in the Catholic Church and, "All of Islam" is actually composed of many different branches, each of which consider the other to be kaffer or infidel. A reformation of Islam would have to happen in Saudi Arabia first with the gaining of control Mecca and Medina by Islamic militants and the establishment of a single authority followed by several hundred years of expansion and homogenization of the religion before someone brave enough to demand change stepped forward. You really want that? I would rather see Islam converted over time to something meaningless, to be exchanged by a high mileage, efficient car in every garage and Iraqi/Saudi/Syrian/etc flags flapping in the wind, casting shadows on vinyl siding.

I really am quite sick of all the bull.... that pops up on the internet. I refer to the internet as The Giant Lie Machine. Maybe instead of surrendering to generalizations, River Rat, you can pick up a book about these people and draw up an educated theory and support your theory before posting your crap for other people to scoff at.

[river rat]

Everything I needed to learn about Arabs and militant Islam, was driven deep into my heart on 9/11..

The silence of the "peace loving Muslim" was deafening....

As a veteran myself, I need to see PROOF of competency of a fighting force before I trust them or accept them as a reliable ally... At the time of my post -- only the Kurds had demonstrated their willingness to fight the good fight against the Iraqi insurgents fighting the coalition..

You make a big point of the difficulty of Muslim killing Muslim.... Hell, man - they've been killing each other for centuries.. My problem, is they seem unwilling the kill the same Muslims we are trying to kill!

Nothing in your post - gives me reason to retract anything in my post or my opinion...

I remain unwilling to trust any Arab that identifies themselves as a "fundamental or militant" Muslim...
That, in my mind - defines a person who ascribes to a "religion" that calls for my destruction....

For your information, rightly or wrongly - I draw a distinction between Arab Shiites and Iranian Shiites.
I saw no evidence of Iranian citizens celebrating the murder and desecration of Americans -- which seems to be common practice among the Arabs.

The next few weeks will provide ample opportunity for the peace and freedom loving Iraqi to show their commitment - while being asked to address the problem with militants in Najaf and Fallujah. It will be interesting to observe...I hope they don't disappoint their country or us...

Semper Fi

[Cronos]

U.S. Army General Dubbed Father of the Iraqi Army

errr.. Just HOW LONG was he there? ;-P

[Cronos]

Why DID von Steuben help us out??