Minnesota CCW: Churches, charities air concerns over concealed-carry gun law

Duluth News-Tribune ^ | Jun. 04, 2004 | MARIE MCCAIN

[jdege]

Churches, charities air concerns over concealed-carry gun law

MINNESOTA: A judge plans to rule on a lawsuit by churches seeking to have the law stuck down.
BY MARIE MCCAIN
ST. PAUL PIONEER PRESS

ST. PAUL - Howard Johnson, a Minneapolis grandfather of 16, believes so strongly in his right to carry a concealed weapon -- even in church -- that he showed up in a Ramsey County courtroom Thursday to hear attorneys debate the constitutionality of Minnesota's handgun permit law.

"It isn't what you have that causes trouble; it's what you do that causes trouble," said Johnson, 66. "There is continuity in this law and the complaints (of those who oppose it) are not based in reality."

More than 30 religious groups and charities are suing to have the law struck down, contending it was attached improperly to an unrelated bill with a vague name. They also believe it infringes on the rights of religious organizations to ban guns from their properties.

The state wants the lawsuit dismissed.

After Thursday's 45-minute hearing, District Judge John Finley said he will issue a written ruling later.

Also in court were members of the Twin Cities chapter of the Million Mom March, a group opposed to the gun permit law. Dressed in various shades of pink, they wore buttons that said "Unarmed" and "More Handguns Do Not Make Us Safer."

"There are more guns in circulation now than ever," said Kate Havelin, chapter president. "We were sold a bill of goods (by the Legislature). People have a right to have guns in their homes to protect themselves. But I don't want your gun near me or my children. I don't want it at the State Fair. I don't want it at the grocery store. I don't want it at my kid's soccer game."

Filed in October, the lawsuit contends legislators used an "unusual parliamentary maneuver" to get the year-old law approved. It contends the plan was attached to a technical bill for the Department of Natural Resources that mentioned a need to train out-of-state hunters who have permits to carry their weapons.

"Ask any average, reasonable Minnesotan if these two issues connect and they'll say no," said David Lillehaug, an attorney representing those who oppose the law.

Roman Catholics, Jews and Protestants are among the religions and denominations represented in the lawsuit. Most of the churches are in the metro area, but the group also included churches from Duluth, Rochester, Northfield and Le Sueur. Charitable organizations such as the YWCA and Catholic Charities of St. Paul and Minnesota also joined.

"My clients believe the state must not cut corners with this kind of law," Lillehaug added. "This is a matter of accountability."

Assistant Attorney General Richard Varco, representing the state, countered there was no attempt to sneak the legislation by citizens. "There was no question about what the Legislature was debating," he said. "There isn't any fraud here. The Legislature knew what they were doing and nothing was snuck in."

This is the second church-based challenge to the handgun law. A similar lawsuit is ongoing in Hennepin County, where District Judge Marilyn Rosenbaum has granted a temporary injunction against enforcement of the law pending results of an October trial.

[jdege]

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[stylin_geek]

Dressed in pink and wearing a button that says "Unarmed." Nothing like labeling yourself "target" for muggers and rapists.

[ahayes]

You stole the words right from my mouth!

Too bad I was unarmed. :-(

[Puppage]

More Handguns Do Not Make Us Safer

Why not ask that Pizza Hut delivery person...then get back to me.

[Puppage]

Dressed in various shades of pink, they wore buttons that said "Unarmed"

I wonder if there's a sign on their front lawn..."THIS HOME PROUDLY GUN FREE"

[spunkets]

"Ask any average, reasonable Minnesotan if these two issues connect and they'll say no," said David Lillehaug, an attorney representing those who oppose the law."

There's nothing reasonable about any of those that oppose the law. THe fact the law may have been attached to "an obscure bill" means nothing, because they were all well aware of the fact it was going through.

[ZULU]

And WHICH, pray tell, are the "Churches" involved here??

The usual suspects?? Quakers?? Methodists? Presbyterians? Episcopalians? The United Council of Churches??

They should all be "outted" and boycotted by loyal Americans - whichever they are.

[chadwimc]

The *ONLY* time I ever lost control of a firearm was...in church. In front of the whole congregation. As I stood with another usher to begin recieving the offering, my S&W .38 Airwieght fell out on the floor. My pastor likes to say "...they can never out brag me at those pastors meetings...".

[B Knotts]

"Howard Johnson is right!"

[Liberatio]

where do i find bookmarks? 5thanks in advance

[Independentamerican]

Your comments sound as though you think the people of the faiths you listed are terrible or something. Do you consider yourself a christian or is there a specific denomination that you believe is more enlightened than others ?

[ZULU]

I don't have a problem with the theology of any of them.

I'm just sick and tired of "Christian" Churches intruding a left-wing political bias which does not reflect the sentiments of a substantial number of their members into issues like the justification of war, the death sentence, illegal invaders, gun control, homosexual intrusions into society and a host of other leftist issues.

And I consider myself a Christian - but I follow the Bible, not the interpretations of a bunch of mush-brained liberals in clerical garb.

[jdege]

Pretty much across-the-board of mainline denominations.

The first church was ELCA, but there are Jewish, Catholic, assorted Protestant denominations involved.

There are four complaints:

The way the law was passed was unconstitutional.

The law requires specific language be posted to ban guns in a church.

The law does not allow churches to keep people from storing their guns in their cars, in church parking lots.

The law states that it is the tenant that has the authority to decide whether to allow or to ban guns, even if a church is the landlord.

[Indie]

Church challenges Second Amendment.

More blind Christians involved in the Liberal theocracy that is so prevalent in organized religion. [ex: look how many churches believe in abortion, female pastors and gay pastors etc..]

/NO tolerance for evil rant no matter how it is disguised

[spunkets]

"The law states that it is the tenant that has the authority to decide whether to allow or to ban guns, even if a church is the landlord."

The Catholic Charities gripe is that tennents in public subsidized housing can have them and that would endanger the CatholicC folks. I wrote them and that's all they came up with. They spoke in a very condescending way, regarding the folks they were "helping" and everyone else for that matter.

[Egon]

I don't want your gun near me or my children. I don't want it at the State Fair. I don't want it at the grocery store. I don't want it at my kid's soccer game."

I'm SO tired of this retarded argument.

I don't want law-abiding citizens with guns near me. I only want gun-toting criminals near me. I WANT to be a victim. I will only frequent establishments that advertize to would-be criminals that "no one in here is armed! Feel free to come in and terrorize any patron you wish!"

And if some crazed druggie with a gun DOES start brandishing his weapon, I sure don't want anyone nearby that can take him down. He should have the right to shoot me in safety, and shoot anyone else that I've endangered with my stupidity too!

What the hell kind of screwed up, planet-X logic is this?

[Egon]

BTW: It's been somewhere around a year since this catestrophic, end-of-the-world legislation has been passed and in effect. Have there been ANY reports of symptoms of the crime wave that these pinkos have been describing having occurred?

(How's THAT for a weirdly constructed sentence?)

[brbethke]

How far the Catholic Church has fallen!

St. Gabriel Possenti, Patron Saint of Handgunners

[ZULU]

"The way the law was passed was unconstitutional. "
Is this really true?


"The law requires specific language be posted to ban guns in a church."

What's wrong with that? If the state has a right to carry law and someone doesn't want guns on their property, how is anybody supposed to know? On the other hand, why should they have the right to override a state law in the first place?

"The law does not allow churches to keep people from storing their guns in their cars, in church parking lots."

It seems pretty clear what the REAL issue is here. These groups oppose the concealed carry law - period.

What is ELCA??

It is beyond me how these different denominations have the gall to impose the personal prejudices of their hierarchies upon the state when in many cases these prejudices do not reflect the opinions of their congregants. They do it on a whole spectrum of issues - without any substantive Biblical backing and its getting worse.

No wonder these churches are loosing members to more fundamentalist groups.

I am a Methodist and am getting pretty fed up with the tripe I am continually baraged with from official Methodist Publications on these issues. If it weren't for my wife, I'd tell them to take a hike and join some fundamentalist group.