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Info From Iraq From Someone Who Is Doing the Run and Gun
June 2004 | An American Contractor

Posted on 06/06/2004 11:55:58 PM PDT by Travis McGee

Please indulge me for posting this long letter from Iraq; it's the "real deal" and is full of valuable information.

Info from Iraq

From Someone who is Doing the Run and Gun

Yesterday a friend of mine who runs a small security company here in Iraq emailed me. He is standing up a protection detail and wanted my opinion on tactics and equipment running the roads of Iraq; Tactics, SOP's, hard car or soft? I have been giving it some thought and here is where I am at.

I am willing to speculate I’m as well traveled in Iraq as anyone I’ve met. I’ve been just about everywhere between Kuwait and Iran, all points in between. And I’ve traveled every way possible.

I’ve gone in military convoy up armored hummers at 40MPH. I’ve run the Fallujah Baghdad gauntlet in a 15 truck convoy, thin skinned white F350's. I’ve rolled all over in blacked out Pajeros in local dress. Diplomatic convoys with armored suburbans and helo cover.

I’ve done the whole hide the guns and smile a lot all the way to showing just about everyone the front sight post.

I’ve done 140KMH up MSR Tampa and weaved through Sadr city at a near standstill.

I, like nearly everyone have made mistakes and been lucky to be here writing this.

I think the most important and neglected aspect of survival in theatre is training. Every freaking day your crew should practice "actions on" - At least do it on a dry erase board. Actions upon anything and everything. What usually happens is we start going through the "what ifs" and all the sudden every guy in the crew has a different idea of what should happen. After all we come from many different backgrounds. After about 30 minutes of that we all end up scratching our head debating which idea is best and say "let’s get chow". Decide on some fundamental concepts. And stick to them, but of course always remembering that the plan is just something to deviate from anyway. As long as we all know the end goal and work towards it. i.e. If the vehicle is stalled in the ambush, driver flicks it in neutral so the rear car can ram us out and we prepare to un-ass the vehicle on the opposite side of the contact.

So rehearse and practice - Which is easy to say because I am the first to admit that a knock on my hooch at 7AM with "hey man lets rehearse this" makes me grumble.

I’m sure we can all agree that debating your actions on is best done at the hootch rather than on the side of a road in Tikrit while your car is being remodeled by a PKM.

PMS your vehicles all the time. Being broke down in Iraq is like a scene on a bad movie. Been there done that. Check tires, oil, fluid, etc... And don’t overdrive your car. My friend VC managed to put a Pajero upside down and backwards on Tampa once because we pushed the cars past their controllability.

Every IC you meet will tell you he is a great driver. Just because you drive fast and haven’t hit anything yet doesn’t mean you’re a good tactical driver. Go to BSR or some other school. And if you haven’t let the guy who has drive. Conduct driver training. Get the best guy to teach everyone else. OJT.

Practice changing tires. There are a couple guys reading this email right now who know exactly what I am talking about. Realizing you’ve packed 300 pounds of gear on top the spare while on the side of a road in Ramadi is a self loathing Ide like not replicate. Make sure you have a tow strap in EVERY vehicle. Loop it through the rear bumper so it’s already attached. that way you swing in front of the busted car and they hook up. Gone in 60 seconds or vice versa... Get a good jack, it's worth the money. Make sure everyone knows where all the tow, change, repair gear is in every vehicle.

In the glove box keep your stay behinds. A frag, Smoke, CN. The rule is. NEVER f*** WITH THE PIN UNLESS YOU HAVE THE GRENADE OUTSIDE THE WINDOW! Hit a bump and it drops on the roadside. Minimal drama. Inside the car? Party foul. Use CN and Smoke. If you're caught in traffic and you have a bad feeling about a car behind you, toss the smoke. Most motorists will stop or at least give you a lot of space. It works and it’s harmless. Can (EDIT: CN) use more sparingly and never while in tight traffic. Watching that cloud blow towards your car faster than you can drive is not fun. The CN is rough stuff and I only would use it on those rare situations where it just has to be done. And the frag? Well we all know when those need to be used.

Put a rubber band on your sling so it doesn’t get caught on stuff while getting out of the car.

Always do a proper route plan. Common sense here. And another note, we are always trying to be sneakier and cleverer than everyone else. Avoiding MSR's and roads frequented by convoys you know the deal. Well before taking a road you see on a map that isn’t used by the Army. Go see the G2, ask them why. It may be for good reason.

Think about fuel consumption. Plan your stops for fuel and food. Always carry a gas can, just in case.

Always have spare batteries for the GPS, Always have a map and compass just like when we were E1's. Do a map study; make sure everyone in the crew knows the route plan.

Carry as big a gun as you can. Keep it clean. Keep it hot.

CARRY LOTS OF AMMO. On April 4th I went through 14 mags and NEVER would have thought that a possibility before then. Carry more ammo, stage spare mags EVERYWHERE. Like the freakin Easter bunny.

I will never go without wearing a helmet again. If there is a Kevlar helmet, it’s going on my head. A dude standing right next to all of us on the roof was dropped from a headshot. Spend the money get a good MICH or the like. The more comfortable and low profile the more likely it is you'll wear it. WEAR A HELMET. Watching Alcon get blasted in the noggin was a SOP changing experience for ALL of us here.

Wear your armor. Period.

If you sleep in a trailer or hootch, know where the nearest bunker is. Trying to find it at 4 AM while scared shitless isn’t the answer. And yes everyone runs for the bunker. The Delta dude who is always giving the evil eye will probably be the first one there followed immediately after by a SEAL in flip-flops. 120MM mortars make us all very humble.

Shoot a lot. Keep training. If you’re company get more ammo. MAKE THEM. Dry fire. Practice mag changes. Focus on cheek weld and front site. The basics win every time.

The three guys shot on the roof here were all either changing mags while standing or weren’t moving to different firing positions frequently - all were regular military and not contractors. They were doing standard Army range shit. And got dropped for it...

You remember when Sam Elliot said "If I need one there will be plenty laying around" in the film WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE, in regards to the rifles? He was right. If you’ve seen those pictures of us on the net Chip was on a SAW and I had a M203. There were weapons strewn about the roof by wounded and those who elected to not play on the two way range. No shit. By the end of week two here we all had our choice in weapons. No shit. We fired RPK, AK47, PKM, MK19, M249, M203, M4, Druganov, and M60 at bad guys between the eight of us... That was unreal...

This brings me onto this - Train on all weapons. If you don’t have access at least read the FM or TM on them. You never know when you’re out of 5.56 and someone will hand you a PKM. Get familiar with them.

Practice shooting out to 800M. I know, nearly every fight is within 150 but we were trying to bang a mortar crew that was pounding us at 800M's. And it happened more than once.

In terms of shooting. Practice as you did on active duty. Always scrounge ammo.

I will ALWAYS take a hardcar over a soft. Its just common sense at this point. If I have a soft car I will sandbag the floors and jam steel and spare plates everywhere I can. Bolt on armor is shit, but better than nothing. Remove the LEXAN windows from the guntrucks. Just like in the old days nothing breaks contact quite like returning accurate, violent fire.

The rear vehicle is always most likely to be hit. Put your best shooters in there, biggest guns.

THE GOLDEN CONNEX BOX... It ain't coming dude. If I had a nickel for every time I have been told "Oh yeah man, we ordered ten of those and they should be here in three days" Or my favorite "don’t worry, it will meet you incountry". If you don’t have good guns, ammo, armor, or comms. Just say no like Nancy Reagan used to say. Some companies are total pieces of shit and will leave you in Iraq with a busted ass stolen AK and two mags. Some will do you better than a tier one unit. Personally, I just want the above mentioned items and the rest to go to my bank account. If I want a three hundred dollar backpack Ill buy it.

Bottom line. Remember what gear is critical. Demand it be the best and take proper care of it.

Medical equipment. It’s expensive. It has saved lives. The company I currently work for spent a gajillion dollars outfitting each crew with great med gear. I'm sure the bill was hard to swallow. I shit you not it saved three peoples lives, all had life threatening injuries. The med kits and our 18D's saved them. The Army had a few bandages and an IV. That was it. You know who you are, thank you for spending the money...

Do remedial med training. Can’t say anymore on that issue. Do it.

Wherever you go carry lots of booze. It’s the most valuable item you can have. If I wrote a list of things I have managed to swindle with a bottle of Jack placed in an E8's hands you would crap you’re pants.

Don’t get drunk and stupid. Be drunk or stupid but never both at once.

Never let the client convince you "it’s safe, I do this all the time". If it’s stupid it’s stupid.

On the same note. Remember if we hamper our client’s ability to do their job too much. Our company can get shitcanned. It’s a fine line. Yeah you’re client thinks its cute to drive to some hadji's house at midnite for tea, sometimes you just have to do it.

Learn to deal with all the clients. Some truly think that all Iraqis are great people and that the US Army is the enemy. Some will encourage you to shoot bicyclists who hog the road. I’ve seen both sides. Keep their agenda and ego's in mind. Don’t make your own life miserable.

Aimpoints are great. The EOTEC is OK. TA31 ACOG is the best by far. The AIMPOINT battery lasts six months. The EOTEC is a little too bright for my taste. Remember that the dot is like 3MOA in size so they aren’t any good past 300 or 400. The ACOG is the heat.

Buy short M4's. They will save you’re ass. I carry a 18" upper on me with glass so when we reach our destination I flick it on the lower receiver and I now have a decent long gun. It’s like having two guns to choose from.

Wes Grant builds all my guns and he does for some Tier One guys as well. www.mstn.biz and wgrant@midsouth.rr.com. He is fair priced and gets the shit out the door quick and can handle good size orders. Optics, Uppers, all that.

If you’re doing Green Zone PSD a mag or two may do you but if you’re in the party zone? TWELVE.

Speaking of which, weapon, twelve mags, pistol, three mags, MEDKIT, GPS, mpa and compass, radio, spare battery, 500US dollars, MRE , water bottle, NVG, armor. It’s a lot. It’s hot but f**k it, if its too heavy get membership at the gym. This job isn’t for everybody.

In your vehicle. Put a US flag on the visor so nobody can see it until you approach a checkpoint, then flip it down. On the passenger side do the same with a VS17 panel. G.I. Joe will shoot your ass just as soon as a Hadji will.

Carry MRE's and water in your car.

NEVER throw food or candy to kids. there are many reasons why. But at the least it encourages kids to jump in front of cars, smashing a kid would ruin your trip here.

If you find yourself trusting the locals its time to take a vacation.

Walk the fine line. Don’t be too conservative and don’t get blown up.

Listen to your intuition. It has saved a guy who is on this mailing list and not listening to it killed a friend a month ago.

Once you make contact ... Finish it. If you shot a guy and he is limping to cover he can still get there and return fire. Just finish everything you start.

A car door is not cover. In fact a car is not cover. Cement is.

While doing the workup for my last deployment we did live fire IADS and movement from vehicles. It was the best training I have done and the most useful. On that note we did many SIMUNITION runs with vehicle ambush scenarios. We found that without a doubt the single most important factor in surviving is getting out and away from the car. Getting behind it as though it was a concrete barrier and playing HEAT will get you killed.

Don’t work for a company that doesn’t vet its IC's. Check their creds, call the references, and put them through a ten day selection course. Just because a guy was a SEAL in Vietnam doesn’t mean he maintained his skills. On that note the best shooter in my training class was a Vietnam SEAL. Some of the best guys were 22year old Rangers and the worst 38 year old SEALs. My point it’s the individual that counts.

But we don’t have time or money to bring a regular Army kid up to speed. You have to have the fundamental skill sets. We can’t introduce you to live fire Australian peels. We should just review and coordinate verbal commands and simple shit.

Just because somebody is a good dude isn’t good enough. If he cant shoot, think, and move - leave him home. Big boy rules.

If a guy doesn’t work out in your crew but has talent and skill send him elsewhere, don’t shitcan him. Personalities clash. Especially when you’re living together 24/7 for six months. Eating every meal together all that. If I hear the same stupid story from a guy forty times? That’s cool. It’s the 41st that’s gonna be drama. You guys know what I’m talking about.

The contractor community is a sewing circle for men. Remember the DYNCORP guy who shot the principle in Baghdad last winter? The story in its most recent telling over cheap Turkish beer involved a diplomatic cover up, a magazine change, and several deaths.

Throwing a flashbang into the team leader's hootch at 3AM while drunk is not a good practical joke.

Remember how much money you’re making. Nobody wants to clean the shitter on a Wednesday morning but keep in mind you're the highest paid janitor in the world that day.

Keep a sense of humor. Keep funny people around, they make shitty situations tolerable and are like Prozac when you need it.

Have thick skin. Your friends will ask for naked pictures of your wife on deployment and yes they may take them to the bathroom with them. Take criticism. If you suck at something ask for training.

Always remember that you were once a young dumbass E1. You made 450 dollars a month and weren’t allowed to fart without a permission chit ran up and down the chain of command. Keep this in mind when you’re bitching because you’re only making 17,000 dollars a month when guys at the other company are getting $17,500. And when the bosses back in the states email you to have a clean shave? Do it. you never know when you’re going to be on some stupid newspaper.

The soldiers around us are deployed for a year sometimes more. They make a fraction of the pay. And are ordered to do stupid, dangerous shit everyday. Keep that in mind when you are upset that instead of 60 days you’re extended to 68.

And keep that in mind when dealing with soldiers. Treat them well, nobody else does.

Yes, we all work for ourselves at the end of the day. At the same end, never f**k over your company or teammates who have to stay behind and clean up your mess. Business OPSEC is one thing but always share your info on intel and tactics. We are all Americans and most of us will work together one time or another. Some of the "business secret" stuff is corny. If you hit an IED on ASR Jackson yesterday, email your colleagues to stay away.

That’s it off the top of my head.

Stay Safe,

(Name removed)


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: banglist; blackwater; contractors; csa; iraq; kbr; personalaccount; terror
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To: Woahhs
Here's where the Salon Bolsheviki ACT-UP types are cowardly calling for the use of HIV needles against peaceful demonstrators:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1148613/posts?page=5#5
101 posted on 06/08/2004 5:29:01 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad (Rising waves, what motive is behind your impulse? The desire to reach upwards.)
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To: MrNatural
..we did live fire IADS and movement from vehicles..

What does that mean?

IADs are not to be confused with IEDs (Improvised Explosive Device).

IADs is an Immediate Action Drill. The purpose it to build team 'muscle memory' for what to do in the event of a certain kind of attack. In practice, it means setting up your team in a way that simulates combat, and running through rehearsals of who does what. Depending on your resources, you'd start off doing it with no ammo, then with blanks, then with live rounds. This teaches a number of useful things, such as how not to shoot your buddy or get shot by him. It also makes you take time to realize that changing mags, destroying equipment, and carrying your 'wounded' teammates takes more time than you'd think.

The scenario variations are numerous, and they get really hairy once you start throwing in complications like 'vehicle disabled', 'man down', or 'leaders down' (that's always a fiasco the first couple of iterations).

The upshot of all this is that in the event of contact, you'll know what to do and what your buddies are doing. Once you as a team start getting good you learn how to keep a steady volume of fire without burning all your ammo or slowing your escape.

102 posted on 06/08/2004 5:38:52 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (ICDC = I Can't Do Crap)
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To: Travis McGee

Never mind, I found the thread, and did a CWII ping.

Here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1148613/posts?page=5


103 posted on 06/08/2004 5:49:34 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (hoplophobia is a mental aberration rather than a mere attitude)
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To: Travis McGee

I'm saving this. If Kerry ever becomes President this advice will come in handy here.


104 posted on 06/08/2004 5:59:45 AM PDT by Semper Paratus
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To: Travis McGee
Thanks for the explanation. For some reason I'd never seen that one before.
105 posted on 06/08/2004 8:04:42 AM PDT by MrNatural (..".You want the truth?!"...)
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To: Travis McGee
I think that right now, SF medic qualified physician's assistants/paramedics etc can write their own ticket with these private outfits. Shooters are easy to find, compared to qualified former SF medics!

Yeah, the going rate for 91BS, 18D, SEAL Independent Corpsman, and PJs is about 20-25% over the contractor going rate. Pay heed to what he says about some groups being better than others. Friend of mine was just with an org which I believe is the same one as this writer. (If not, it's got equivalent quality and stress on training and selection).

Dyncorp, for a contrary example, is not a good or safe outfit to be with, and since word has gotten around, they are doing things through intermediate contractors. So you are hired by Blowfish LLC that was established last Tuesday, which is getting paid by Dyncorp, and rakes off 20%, and you get the proverbial rusty AK. (Some of their first arrivals were told to scrounge guns from the US military. "Hey, sarge, you don't know me and I'm not in the Army or anything, but can I sign for an M4?") I've had this confirmed both ways, because I've seen emails from USSF bitching about contractors trying to hit them up for confiscated weapons, M16 magazines, etc. There is huge money in this, but in some cases it all cha-chingg!s into the account of the Beltway middleman, and the man "in the arena" is facing hadji with the armament equivalent of a jockstrap and a light coat of LSA.

Like he said, some outfits DON'T VET THEIR PEOPLE and take them at their word. "Trust, but verify" should apply here. Blackwater took a guy that we bounced permanently after several half-hearted attempts at selection and qualification. I was flabbergasted because BW has (or had, anyway) a good rep. He just told them that he had made it into the unit, and had seen combat with us. He altered his DD214. THEY NEVER CALLED ANYONE TO CHECK.

With SEALs at least it is easy to get an upcheck or downcheck on a guy's qualification -- anyone can find out in hours if Joe really did BUD/S or not. With us it's a bit harder, but there are ways, and you'd think that contract managers would be keen on using them. But whether the guy passes school is only one part of the whole thing. As it's customary to tell newbies on the first day of selection, "Your reputation with us starts here, and it will follow you forever." I don't know how many times I shook the trees on a guy who stumbled through all the attrition and had paper qualifications, but got a discreet thumbs down on him based on fatal defects in attitude or character.

The character is more important than the qualification, but as the letter points out, you need a certain baseline of skills to play in this league.

The old boy system works when you recruit in your own pool -- I have a rolodex full of my guys, I'm sure Travis and Squantos could find some of theirs, etc. But I don't know the guys in Travis's rolodex, and more importantly, I don't have the shared experience of BUD/S and whatever-all else you guys do. If some guy came to me and told me he was a SEAL on an SDV team I would not be able to tell if he was blowing smoke or telling the truth, where another SEAL would know in minutes. So using your instincts an contacts to check on people fails when you go outside your own service (or even little corner of your service, sometimes).

The demand has caused a lot of contractors to lower the bar on whom they'll accept. Since the biggest thing that determines whether you are coming home is the competence of the folks you're with, what do you make of that, eh?

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

106 posted on 06/08/2004 9:14:37 AM PDT by Criminal Number 18F (I remember it as the Australian Peel, FWIW. But the guy sounds like one of "yours")
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To: Poohbah; Travis McGee; Archangelsk

Also in the not good practical jokes while drunk department: deciding the FOB Commander was just joking when he told you guys to pipe down, and piling on and giving him a friendly noogie.

What is it about 0300 and Mr Daniel's judgment juice that brings out the mischief in people?

(No I wasn't one of the drunks, or the FOB commander. I was ops NCO or duty SGM, I forget. Either way, I got to go wake up COs and CSMs and tell them to meet their miscreants at the boss's hooch, forthwith).

My budddy Archangelsk has a saying: Good judgment comess from experience.... Experience comes from bad judgment.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F


107 posted on 06/08/2004 9:23:33 AM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: bad company
Read Unintended Concenquences by john Ross and find Carlos Marighella's "Urban Guerrilla". Good places to start. Urban Guerrilla can be found on the web.

Don't skip my book, either. It's a realistic novel of one possible forthcoming "dirty war" scenario.

108 posted on 06/08/2004 9:25:25 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Lazamataz

Thanks Laz! Things are so-so to okay out here.


109 posted on 06/08/2004 9:26:25 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Steel Wolf

Well stated.


110 posted on 06/08/2004 9:28:27 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Criminal Number 18F; Travis McGee

Another not-nice practical joke:

When the USAF security inspector, portraying himself as a Marine for a security exercise, approaches you and asks for directions to the crypto shop...you're supposed to make the "Helping Hand" signal to the Security Police, NOT direct him to the line shack and make a throat-cutting gesture to the Flight Line apes.

(They found the inspector two hours later, ordnance-taped to a grease rack and liberally coated with axle grease and Speedy-Dry :o)


111 posted on 06/08/2004 9:30:55 AM PDT by Poohbah ("Mister Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" -- President Ronald Reagan, Berlin, 1987)
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To: Criminal Number 18F; Squantos; airborne; sneakypete
Everything you said is spot on, but I'd also add that no matter what a guy's quals were 15-25 years ago, they don't mean much if he's been a couch potato in Lalaland for the last 10-20 years.

Plus, we used to say that somehow, ten percent of ANY group that makes it through selection (BUD/S, whatever) will be screwballs.

So what you might find at the hiring end is a screwball who somehow made it through BUD/S or SF school 20 years ago, got out, and hasn't had a tactical thought since then.

In that case, give me a 25 year old one hitch Ranger any day. At least he'll be tough and will listen with both ears.

In any event, I would certainly want to put prospective volunteers through a minimum of a 7-10 day mini selection course stateside before sending him anywhere. If this isn't being done, then how the hell do you know if the guy is up to speed at all? I sure as hell know enough to know I'm not!

112 posted on 06/08/2004 9:36:55 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
Well said ........as many years as I did and continue to do my job if I went active duty again I'd have to go back thru the basic school or I endanger myself and others around me. Folks should'nt let their desire to get back to the lifestyle and action cloud their knowledge that they are NOT up to par as they were so many years ago nor would they be an asset. There are those that can and those that can not. We as veterans "must" be smart enough to know if we are a burden or an asset to a given task and have the cajones to acknowledge it.

Stay safe !

113 posted on 06/08/2004 9:46:53 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.)
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To: Travis McGee

One more thing,

most of these jobs require a current, active security clearance. It takes time to be granted if you have been out of the system for a while (I have a friend in exactly that position, too; he can't go to refresher training until his clearance comes in).

You will get better jobs and more money with an active TS/SI than with a Secret clearance, also. A secret clearance usually is nothing more complicated than a criminal records and credit record check. (It's called NACLC). If nothing curious is found they don't often even talk to the individual. A TS/SI requires quite a number of personal interviews (subject, references, employers, neighbours) and costs significant money. Best result on S was about 90 days, TS about a year. Worst result: I've seen investigations that wobbled along for four years and are still inconclusive. It doesn't seem to matter whether the individual has some problems or not.

One sign of an undercapitalized, borderline operator is that they won't do clearance paperwork on a guy (whoever requests the investigation has to pay for it) but will ONLY take people already cleared.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F


114 posted on 06/08/2004 9:47:27 AM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Squantos; Eagle Eye
I think the old "dated" specops background is terrific if a contractor is going somewhere to ply a new skill on the civilian side. Then the old specops skills can be a valuable fallback if TSHTF while transiting etc. But I'd be leery of most 40 year old plus specops guys trying to jump back in as hired guns.

I wouldn't hire me as a shooter, LOL.

115 posted on 06/08/2004 9:57:44 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Criminal Number 18F

I forgot about the clearance side of it. More hassles.


116 posted on 06/08/2004 9:59:53 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee

Your book also has "pearls of wisdom".
I really enjoyed it. I used to live in both the DC & the Tidewater area (ODU graduate) so I appreciated the landmarks referenced. I loved rowing the Great Dismal Swamp.


117 posted on 06/08/2004 10:02:36 AM PDT by Feiny (Hail to the Chief!!!)
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To: feinswinesuksass

Thanks, I try. I want the book to be useful on many levels: as a warning to "domestic enemies," and of course in helping readers to prepare for possible outcomes.


118 posted on 06/08/2004 10:05:05 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Squantos

Nor me.


119 posted on 06/08/2004 11:12:00 AM PDT by patton (I wish we could all look at the evil of abortion with the pure, honest heart of a child.)
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To: gieriscm; BCR #226

ping


120 posted on 06/08/2004 12:02:00 PM PDT by gieriscm (The AW ban sunsets on 09/13/2004)
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