Posted on 05/25/2004 2:08:15 PM PDT by ambrose
Article Last Updated: Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 3:14:49 AM PST
How Marines kept Fallujah from becoming Dresden
Destroying the city ill-conceived; Marines make a pact with
ex-generals instead
By Tony Perry,, Los Angeles Times
Patrick J. McDonnell
and Alissa J. Rubin
FALLUJAH, Iraq -- The insurgents came at the Marines in relentless, almost suicidal waves. By the time the two-hour firefight in the Jolan district of this Sunni Muslim stronghold was over, dozens of anti-American fighters and one Marine were dead.
When the April 26 battle ended, Lt. Gen. James Conway, commanding general of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, knew something else: It was, in a microcosm, what house-to-house fighting might look like if the Marines were forced to storm Fallujah and, possibly, level a city of 300,000 people. He didn't like the look of the future battlefield.
Conway had been given authority to cut a deal. He had long spoken about "putting an Iraqi face" on the security forces here. From unexpected quarters, a chance suddenly emerged to accomplish that goal in spectacular -- if far from ideal -- fashion. The April 26 firefight came during an uneasy, and often broken, cease-fire between the insurgents and the Marines who had laid siege to the city earlier that month. At the time, the best hope for a peaceful resolution appeared to be the negotiations involving Sunni clerics, Fallujah civic leaders and sheiks, the Marines and U.S. occupation officials.
(Excerpt) Read more at trivalleyherald.com ...
I agree, I should have said “or” communist state like I did the last time or two rather than “and” communist states.
And accuracy, apparently, is unimporant to you. Disprove the article, if you please, or shut up.
I agree with the article.
It doesn’t address who ordered the ceasefire and prohibited heavy weapons in the offensive.
It only hints at it in both directions, including this statement implying that the Marines were tasked to find a solution that didn’t threaten the June 30 turnover.
”What happened, Marines say, is that the stakes in got too big. An all-out assault, Marines say, would have caused mass casualties, further inflamed the entire region and disrupted the planned June 30 turnover of authority to the Iraqis.”Again, short term politics prohibiting a military victory, much like Vietnam.
There. I addressed your attempt to avoid what I outlined up in #92, but I doubt you’ll muster the courage to address it.
I showed you how you are misrepresenting (lying about) my claims. That’s disgraceful.
The Marines were positioned, in releif of the 82nd Airborne, two weeks BEFORE the butchering of the Blackwater Security guys. They were there to "pacify" the city, using the specialized training and techniques they had implemented just for that purpose.
The ambush and desecration was clearly a high-profile outrage designed to provoke a gross overreaction. It is my belief that the Blackwater guys were killed BECAUSE the Marines were on their way to clean house.
You've "addressed," "explained," ducked, and dodged, but the bottom line is that the Marines made the decision, the CLEARED it with Washington. Our discussion is finished.
You’ve presented absolutely zero to specifically support your claim that the ceasefire was a Marine decision, and now you project onto me some of the most disgraceful behaviors of your that I documented of you up in #92.
Your actions here are those of a coward and a fraud.
Hey, anyone can see the Marine general followed orders to retreat. Orders from Bremer and the WHite House. It's not rocket science.
Marines like to keep moving forward. Never in a million years would they have capitualated, given up Falluja and retreated unless ordered to by the Highest Authority.
You won't convince anyone tho'.
Major General Ray L. Smith, who wrote the book "The March Up" and had first hand experience and contact, has stated in several interviews how impressed he was with Maj. Gen Mattis command leadership and tactical acumen.
I'm curious, Tomas, what was your rank in the USMC and when did you serve? Normally I wouldn't ask, but since you highlight your service so prominently in your screenname, and since you are such a virulent critic of this campaign, I'm curious what special insights you bring to the table.
I don’t even go that far. Evidence is that they were simply told that aggressively defeating Fallujah with the weapons and training they possessed was politically unacceptable. They were ordered into that ceasefire/sniper mode, which they considered militarily unacceptable. They found a way out, good for them.
The Marines are conducting the campaign EXACTLY as they were trained and resourced to do.
I saw a televised Q&A debriefing on C-SPAN last September involving 1st Marine Commanders LtG Conway, MajGens Mattis and Amos and other USMC military and logistic commanders from Iraq. They were back in the States, and one of the objectives they articulated in their time home was to specifically develop the strategies and tactics, and train and resource their forces to handle cities like Fallujah. Fallujah came up in the Q&A, and Conway said matter-of-factly that they were going to use the "lessons learned" from the less than successful campaigns of the 82nd and 3ID in that city to mold an effective force and strategy to deal with the unique challenges of that delicate urban/cultural landscape.
There's nothing here that was unforseen. There's no bullying or capitulation. The professionals are plying their trade with brilliance and professionalism. You've staked a contrived position on this forum, and you seem to be one of those annoying guys who's never wrong and needs to have the last word. You're playing the fool here.
You’ve given no evidence to support that. Combined air/ground tasks forces don’t train to forbid the use of everything they brought with them in the offense other than snipers. Military Commanders’ Decisions in Fallujah Overridden by Politicians (CONFIRMED)
"There's nothing here that was unforeseen. "
You don’t’ know what you’re talking about. Read #63, from a father of a Marine there.
"you seem to be one of those annoying guys who's never wrong and needs to have the last word"
Rest assured that I’ll give you informed opinion the consideration it deserves.
I can't stand you arrogant jerks who exploit this Operation, roll in the gore, to satisfy some petty political ideology. You are quick to call others frauds, but it is you who is running a corrupt program here.
Get over yourself.
Wow, that’s really relevant stuff to how the Marines attacked Fallujah after the ceasefire…. Show me the part about forbidding the use of heavy weapons on hand or get lost.
I'll enjoy watching your little egomaniacal con-job unfold going forward.
Actually, the Marines brought shipping crates full of soccer balls and frisbees to hand out in their AOR. What they didn't arrive with was suitable armor and fixed wing support to conduct significant and sustained urban warfare. They did use every bit of what they brought with them before the ceasefire was called. But they wisely determined what they had wasn't sufficient to mount full scale offensive operations. So they decided not to.
You don’t even possess the discrimination necessary to tell the difference between a transcript of a television interview and a “vanity”, much less the qualifications to understand the 3 block war link you posted and how it doesn’t’ relate to taking a town without heavy weapons in offensive operations.
I’m try to get over your disapproval of me. [snicker]
Keep digging your hole fool. It's fun to watch.
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