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How Marines kept Fallujah from becoming Dresden; Destroying the city ill-conceived
TriValley Herald ^ | 5.20.04

Posted on 05/25/2004 2:08:15 PM PDT by ambrose

Article Last Updated: Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 3:14:49 AM PST

How Marines kept Fallujah from becoming Dresden

Destroying the city ill-conceived; Marines make a pact with

ex-generals instead

By Tony Perry,, Los Angeles Times

Patrick J. McDonnell

and Alissa J. Rubin

FALLUJAH, Iraq -- The insurgents came at the Marines in relentless, almost suicidal waves. By the time the two-hour firefight in the Jolan district of this Sunni Muslim stronghold was over, dozens of anti-American fighters and one Marine were dead.

When the April 26 battle ended, Lt. Gen. James Conway, commanding general of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, knew something else: It was, in a microcosm, what house-to-house fighting might look like if the Marines were forced to storm Fallujah and, possibly, level a city of 300,000 people. He didn't like the look of the future battlefield.

Conway had been given authority to cut a deal. He had long spoken about "putting an Iraqi face" on the security forces here. From unexpected quarters, a chance suddenly emerged to accomplish that goal in spectacular -- if far from ideal -- fashion. The April 26 firefight came during an uneasy, and often broken, cease-fire between the insurgents and the Marines who had laid siege to the city earlier that month. At the time, the best hope for a peaceful resolution appeared to be the negotiations involving Sunni clerics, Fallujah civic leaders and sheiks, the Marines and U.S. occupation officials.

(Excerpt) Read more at trivalleyherald.com ...


TOPICS: War on Terror
KEYWORDS: fallujah; iraq; marines
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1 posted on 05/25/2004 2:08:17 PM PDT by ambrose
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To: ambrose

What have we seen out of Fallujah since this conflict?


2 posted on 05/25/2004 2:21:14 PM PDT by Jalapeno
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To: Jalapeno

Well, evidently it's mayor came out and said that reconstruction contractors should come back. I'm sure they're just lining up!


3 posted on 05/25/2004 2:24:30 PM PDT by Threepwood
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To: ambrose

I believe it comes down to killing inplacable insurgents, or allowing them to constitute the authority of Fallujah, and set the example for other wannabes. We chose to let the insurgents win.

We will pay for this over and over and over....Islamofascists learn, and here they learned it is profitable to face us down in cities.

Also, it is inaccurate to compare Fallujah to Dresden. There were probably not enough remaining fighters to require the razing of the city. A few thousand more, by most accounts. Had we creatively engaged them, destroying the town was not necessary.

Dresden, as you may recall, was a fire-bombing in which maximum civilian casualties were expected. My neighbor was a little girl evacuated to the hillsides outside Dresden, and watched the city and its inhabitants (including her parents) incinerated in a firestorm. That was not the prospect for Fallujah at any point.


4 posted on 05/25/2004 2:24:37 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Islam: Nothing BEER couldn't cure.)
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To: ambrose

The author claims Fallujah is for all intents and purposes a rebel town. B.S. How many "rebel towns" can Americans drive downtown and meet with mayor? This is taking a rather creative, humane solution to a vexing problem and portraying it as a defeat. Another journalist working for the enemy.


5 posted on 05/25/2004 2:27:28 PM PDT by Dilbert56
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To: Dilbert56

Where did the bad guys go?


6 posted on 05/25/2004 2:33:47 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Islam: Nothing BEER couldn't cure.)
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To: Dilbert56
The author claims Fallujah is for all intents and purposes a rebel town. B.S. How many "rebel towns" can Americans drive downtown and meet with mayor?

You may want to read this thread.

Fallujah Emerging As Islamic Mini-State

7 posted on 05/25/2004 2:50:52 PM PDT by Freebird Forever
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To: Brad Cloven
You will find that most military officers like most baseball players want to play. If a ball player gets drafted by the Yankees he plays as hard as he can for the yankees. But if he gets traded to the Indians he will play just as hard for them.

IT is true in politics too. When Dick Morris was hired by Jesse Helms and Trent Lott he did what it took to re-elect Jesse and Trent. When he was hired by Clinton he did all he could to elect and re-elect Clinton. He is a player not an ideologue.

There were undoubtedly many players in the Saddam army. They will play for the insurgents if that is their only choice, but they will play for our military if they are given a chance.

We, on the other hand, are like baseball fans. If we are an Indian fan we can't imagine rooting for the Yankees. Players don't think like us.

There is not much new in this. When Patton took over Germany at the end of WWII he used many officers from the NAZI army to run the US portion west Germany. It was no problem. When Hitler was in power the officers played for him. When we were in power the same officers played for us.

Some of the NAZIs and some of the Iraqis are ideologues.. but many are not.

But if we get players who want to play for us, they can blow a so called holy Mosque to bits with all the insurgents inside. They can do it and never raise an eyebrow.

When the hard core insurgents know that other Iraqis will kill them no matter where they are, they tend to surrender.

The typical Iraqi terrorist is about as tough as Saddam. When they know all is lost they will be as docile as Saddam was upon his capture.

8 posted on 05/25/2004 2:56:21 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: ambrose
Overnight, between the rusty gun turn-in, and the decision to turn over the town to Iraqi authorities, combined forces put about 70 percent of the insurgents to death from above. That's about 90 percent of the reason the city has seemed so relatively quiet.
9 posted on 05/25/2004 3:01:13 PM PDT by Prospero (Ad Astra!)
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To: Common Tator
Very sound thoughts, spud. Thanks for sharing them.

Gum

10 posted on 05/25/2004 3:02:13 PM PDT by ChewedGum (aka King of Fools)
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To: Common Tator
"When the hard core insurgents know that other Iraqis will kill them no matter where they are, they tend to surrender.

An therein lies the true test of the theory....

WILL the Iraqi police/military fight to the death --- the militant Islamists -- or will they see Islam as their common link to the Islamists, and a stronger link than to the new Iraqi "democracy"??

At present, there is more evidence that the New Iraqi "Police/Miliary", will shrink from the task......without MASSIVE support from Coalition forces..

Semper Fi

11 posted on 05/25/2004 3:16:13 PM PDT by river rat (You may turn the other cheek...But I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Dilbert56
Another journalist working for the enemy.

By Tony Perry, Los Angeles Times

Mark him well. What did you expect from the LA Times?

12 posted on 05/25/2004 3:50:18 PM PDT by lancer (If you are not with us, you are against us!)
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To: nutmeg

read later


13 posted on 05/25/2004 3:51:30 PM PDT by nutmeg (Why vote for Bush? Imagine Commander in Chief John F’in al-Qerry)
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To: Brad Cloven

"Dresden, as you may recall, was a fire-bombing in which maximum civilian casualties were expected. My neighbor was a little girl evacuated to the hillsides outside Dresden, and watched the city and its inhabitants (including her parents) incinerated in a firestorm."
"That was not the prospect for Fallujah at any point."

It should have been.


14 posted on 05/25/2004 3:57:14 PM PDT by 2nd Bn, 11th Mar (Sniper: "One shot, one kill". Machinegunner: "One shot, one kill...again, & again & again".)
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To: river rat
WILL the Iraqi police/military fight to the death --- the militant Islamists -- or will they see Islam as their common link to the Islamists, and a stronger link than to the new Iraqi "democracy"??

THAT is the $64,000 question. We may be able to exercise a certain level of control over Falluja by bullying the Iraqi gendarmes into doing our bidding. That may be sufficient for the task at hand, which is < cue the chorus > putting an "Iraqi Face" on the problem until real power transfer takes place.

15 posted on 05/25/2004 4:00:29 PM PDT by Tallguy (Surviving in PA....thats the "other PA"...Pennsylvania.)
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To: ambrose
With a potential bloodbath looming, Marine leaders adopted a mantra: "We don't want to turn Fallujah into Dresden," referring to the Allied firebombing of the German city in World War II that killed tens of thousands of civilians.

Col. Peters is right, American Soldiers in the here and now are the creme de la creme. While I don't think the bombing of Dresden is analagous, who am I to argue with the highest caliber of men on the ground, right there? They used their heads, and because of that they will prevail. I'm surprised at the ex-Saddamites backdoor knockings though. Just goes to show you Tzu was right, the faster you can incorporate the vanquished into the realm of the new order the better your chances of a quick success, and while I've never been to War, I don't think War provides for success should the effort drag on and on.

16 posted on 05/25/2004 4:08:56 PM PDT by AlbionGirl ("E meglio lavorare con qui non ti paga, e no ha parlare con qui non ti capisce!")
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To: Brad Cloven
We will pay for this over and over and over....Islamofascists learn, and here they learned it is profitable to face us down in cities.

I respectfully disagree with your analysis. We won't pay for it if we are not there. Most of these people are not Islamofascists. They were just people in a city...defending their city. Same as you would do if a foreign army invaded your city.

There were only a few hundred foreign terrorist types there, by the Marines own estimate. The rest were simply Fallujah citizens thinking that they were protecting their city.

17 posted on 05/25/2004 4:09:40 PM PDT by NeonKnight
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To: Prospero
Let's not confuse the critics with the logic of Faluja.

This area was so unstable even Saddam Hussein wouldn't enter.

18 posted on 05/25/2004 4:11:57 PM PDT by OldFriend (LOSERS quit when they are tired/WINNERS quit when they have won)
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To: AlbionGirl

As long as it was the commanders on the ground making this move (and not the State Dept.), I'm for it.

Too many keyboard warriors on this site that want to nuke everything.


19 posted on 05/25/2004 4:13:52 PM PDT by ambrose (AP Headline: "Kerry Says His 'Family' Owns SUV, Not He")
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To: ambrose
Do you recall the live coverage of a similar, albeit smaller scale, situation like this during the early days of the war.

Some of our troops had entered a city and were progressing toward a mosque when they were confronted by a very large and very noisy crowd barring their path. It looked like it was going to turn ugly, then the platoon leader order his men to point their rifles toward the ground and knell down on one knee.

Right away the crowd calmed down and our people found out that there were bad guys up ahead.

I thought that was one of the most remarkable scenes I had ever witnessed. We have some remarkable people fighting this war.

20 posted on 05/25/2004 4:13:56 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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