Posted on 05/20/2004 10:06:34 PM PDT by churchillbuff
Four decades separate the war in the jungle from the war in the desert, yet the current president from Texas sounds eerily similar to another president from Texas.
George W. Bush says, "Now is the time, and Iraq is the place." Lyndon B. Johnson said, "The time is now, and the place is Vietnam." Bush says, "Bring 'em on." Johnson said, "Nail the coonskin to the wall."
Bush says, "We are fighting that enemy in Iraq... so that we do not meet him again on our own streets, in our own cities." Johnson said, "If we quit Vietnam, tomorrow we'll be fighting in Hawaii, and next week we'll have to fight in San Francisco."
(Excerpt) Read more at thestate.com ...
I am still waiting for him to answer my question in regards to releasing Saddam.
"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time... Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
I'll tell you what sparky, answer our question about the sarin gas shell and I'll leave the thread for the evening.
No,, a truth teller
"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time... Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
Do you know a guy that calls himself "newswatcher" on Liberty Forum that calls himself the "truth teller"?
It'll be interesting to see whether there's any "there" there, or just some stuff left over from the late 80s. In the meantime, Powell said on MTP last Sunday that he'd been misinformed when he warned of WMDs at the UN.
Officials: Sarin-Filled Shell 'Old and Unmarked'
Fox News
Wednesday, May 19, 2004
NEW YORK — An artillery shell recently found in Iraq that contained three to four liters of the deadly nerve agent sarin (search) is "old and unmarked," senior defense officials told Fox News on Wednesday.
Officials said efforts to determine the exact age and origin of the sarin shell are picking up steam and that samples collected following Saturday's explosion of the shell are being sent out to several laboratories in the United States and the United Kingdom.
"... It is likely the IED (search) [improvised explosive device]-maker did not know he had sarin on his hands," said one line in the latest incident report made available to senior military officials at the Pentagon.
Well Tex, have a good evening. I think I'll turn in now rather then waiting for the it to further soil the good name of a man of courage and conviction...what a shame.
So he found the ONLY damned shell in Iraq that contained Sarin gas. Is that your contention?
Why should we expect anything else from the likes of you?
Sleep well Neville.
"Hogwash. The only rational course now is "stay the course" - any other course would make Kerry President and cost us dearly in the War on Terror."
The problem is it appears the course we are on will only inexorably lead to Kerry becomming president to our dear cost in the war on terror.
You say, "stay the coure" but what is that course? Bush certainly has not been able to articulate a credible course in Iraq, although he has done so for the general war. Bush's original conception of a Jeffersonian democracy no longer is taken seriously in the perception of the media - and perception is everything in the run up to this election, as the sad decline in Mr Bush's favorability ratings show.
The President will begin a series of speeches on Monday outlining our policy in this hand off business, I hope he can show the American people that there actually is a plan for Iraq and that he is in charge.
But speeches alone will not overcome evidence. There must be no more Chalabis, no more Fallujahs, no more prison scandals. The American electorate will vote the evidence before their eyes and they can only see the pictures they are shown. They cannot see metaphysical progress toward democracy, even if the media would show it.
Bush is unfortunately hostage to events in Iraq and he can do very little to shape day to day perceptions. As he loses the day to day battle for the perception of sucess in Iraq, he loses the election. When he loses the election, American stands in extreme danger of losing the war on terrorism.
The posters here have the choice of winning the war, winning the perception war, or shooting the messanger. So far, they have chosen the last.
You think that Saddam had his bombs LABELED? "This one's Sarin, this one's mustard,and this one,with the pretty pink squiggle is just a prop." ?
Pleasant dreams.:-)
BTTT for reference also.
"the course we are on will only inexorably lead to Kerry becomming president"
Arguable at best. we are winning the real war in Iraq, but losing the perception war. The course to change is to change the media-fed perceptions and give a more balanced view of the challenging but achievable task, and the fact that although beset by enemies, we are mainly on course on our plans and path to Iraqi democracy.
"You say, "stay the coure" but what is that course? "
An ignorant comment at best. This is such an outrageous BS comment that is repeated so many times, it attains the status of a BIG LIE. Bush *has* articulated that course - a transition to Iraqi soveriegnty and democracy. And he articulated the overall plan, in April he laid it out clearly in a *primetime speech and press conference*. Idiot Democrat politicians seems to think if they dont like the course or plan that mean there is 'not plan'. Yet: Transitional law and constitution in place now. June comes Iraqi sovereignty,
"Bush's original conception of a Jeffersonian democracy "
Another strawman POC; I dont recall a plan where only white-male property owners got to vote. But I do see that we have ALREADY HAD ELECTIONS IN IRAQ across many local communities.
Men and women voting for councils. Something like 80% of such councils are not elected.
The biggest myth and problem is that IRAQ IS MORE READY FOR ELECTIONS AND DEMOCRACY THAN THE CPA AND UN WANTS TO ADMIT. Bush, peace be upon him, has forced CPA to accelerate the transition to Iraqi sovereignty, correctly sensing that delaying that only makes our situation less tenable.
"... no longer is taken seriously in the perception of the media - and perception is everything in the run up to this election, as the sad decline in Mr Bush's favorability ratings show."
This part I can agree with. This morning I was assaulted with NPR cogitating over abuse hearings and then on TV more abuse photos. The real news - that in the past week we've been killing hundreds of al-Sadr militia fighters - is missed.
"The President will begin a series of speeches on Monday outlining our policy in this hand off business, I hope he can show the American people that there actually is a plan for Iraq and that he is in charge."
Now let me put my pessimist hat on: BUSH HAS DONE THIS. REPEATEDLY. In September, in January, in April. In comments throughout, he has explained that this is not an easy tasks, it requires patience and resolve, and he's declared that resolve and commitment and hope that a better Iraq will change the historical path for the whole middle east.
My pessimism is that the media has smothered his previous declarations with their own story. He'll need to make a very big show to overcome that.
"But speeches alone will not overcome evidence. There must be no more Chalabis,"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1139781/posts
If you mean, no more raids on IGC members that appear to
Chalabi has been a clear-eyed view of what is really going on, and he's PO'd Bremer by speaking truth. IN return, Bremer has tried to undercut one of the few pro-western politicians on the IGC... article says:
"Iraqis — fans and foes of Chalabi alike — saw the raid as another sign of the contempt the CPA shows for ordinary Iraqis. By sending forces to break into Chalabi's house and then by holding a Governing Council member at gunpoint, Bremer sought to humiliate Chalabi. Bremer has not learned from the Abu Ghraib scandal. Humiliation backfires. "
So this was likely a mistake. Fallujah? maybe some mistakes made, but we whipped the bad guys and now have pacified the town in a manner that wasnt pacified earlier.
"The American electorate will vote the evidence before their eyes"
The media is presenting only the negative, not the progress.
Fact is simple: Fewer than 1000 soldiers lost in an effort to liberate and change a country of 24 million, against dark forces like the baathists, terrorists and foriegn despots (syria and iran). And we beat back those forces
at each turn.
But if the media is going to report a raid on a safe house as an 'attack on a wedding party', then there really is nothing left to say on this matter of perception. we are daily subjected to phony agit-prop as "news" and it gets worse and worse. If you think it is hopeless to fight that, give up on politics. Leave FR. We are here because we *know* all about media bias, we know what it is, why it is, and how it works. That is the real battle we face in America. The fight for the soul and intellect of America.
There are those who WANT TO SEE THIS IN THE DARKEST POSSIBLE TURN. They are the folks who way "prison abuse"
like it was some great event. It wasnt. A dozen guards got out of line and abused some imprisoned terrorists. BFD. An al-sadr minion calls for raping American female soldiers, not reported. We have elections through parts of Iraq, barely mentioned. We have peace in most of Iraq, not acknowwledge. The Kurds love us, mentioned only in passing between references of "quagmire" in Iraq. etc.
"Bush is unfortunately hostage to events in Iraq"
Events in Iraq are on a bumpy path to success and victory.
Bush is no more hostage to success there than he is 'hostage' to a growing and robust economy, and he is hostage to success in Afghanistan. Such are events.
"and he can do very little to shape day to day perceptions."
ON this point, I disagree. Bush has had 2 failures related to Iraq. The bigger one is failure to better manage his White House message and stay in front of various anti-Bush messages and campaign related to Iraq. the lesser failure is the failure of CPA to transition more quickly to democracy and to trust friendly Iraqis and help them defeat baathists. This failure is not fatal, and is corrected over time. By January 2005, it will be fully corrected, and the US will be required to live with the consequences of which political forces we helped or didnt.
But the actual administrative errors in Iraq are NOT why the media is giving him a hard time. The REAL reason is that the media WANTS HIM OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.
If not Abu Graib, then the phony worries about Shiites, if not that, then they'd concoct a Halliburton scandal, if not that, *then* they'd fall back to Richard Clarke, or explore Bush's excessive zeal for prayer, or paint him as "arrogant" because he doesnt dwell on 20/20 hindsight, etc. For the media, the economy news consists of "what is bad about the economy today", and Iraq news consists of "what is bad about Iraq today". Well, guess what converting a 35 year old totalitarian regime is worse than sausage making - it's messy, and in this case, thanks to our enemy terrorists, violent and bloody and real ugly.
But that doesnt mean the media perception and reporting is even close to a truthful account, not when job #1 is to spread negativity.
In short, the MEDIA CRITICISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN IRAQ. It simply has todo with "what can we bash Bush with today".
"As he loses the day to day battle for the perception of sucess in Iraq, he loses the election. When he loses the election, American stands in extreme danger of losing the war on terrorism. The posters here have the choice of winning the war, winning the perception war, or shooting the messanger."
Since we are NOT on the front lines (those on the front lines are already winning the real war), the only choice for us at FR is that middle choice:
WINNING THE PERCEPTION WAR.
I am glad that you understand the stakes.
The real war is going far better than the media admits;
if we dont win the perception war, in November the real war will take a turn for the worse if the wrong man gets elected.
So FReepers have a simple but important task:
Become a spreader of JOY and GOOD NEWS to fellow Americans.
Remind them of how great the economy is, that falling unemployment, 5% growth, and best performance for manufacturing in 20 years is a good thing. Point out that the tax cuts have led to revenues that surpassed estimates so that deficit estimates have come down. Remind them that we've taken out 70% of Al Qaeda. Remind them that we took down Saddam in 3 weeks, and will build Iraq back up in under 2 years. Point out that most Iraqis want democracy, are glad to be rid of saddam, dont support terrorism as saddam did. Point out the Sarin and mustard gas the media seems to think nothing of. Point out the links Saddam had to terrorists that the media ignores. But most of all, point out that our US military is doing a great job, and that re-electing Bush will be the best way to support them in completing their mission and achieving success.
We are winning the war on terror. We just have to remind people of that, and defeat the media negative bias.
So if I left poison in your fridge and it was old poison and unmarked, you wouldnt mind?
What a maroon!
The president himself told Tim Russert on MTP -- and Powell reiterated it this last weekend -- that there aren't the WMDs in Iraq that they had warned about in urging an invasion. If you know more than Bush and Powell, argue with them, not me.
bump
Only when the "messenger" is stumping for Saddam.
I tell ya, the way to get the posters here to agree with you, i.e. to call for a withdrawal, would be to persuade Patrick Buchanan to write an article calling for the opposite, i.e to support the present status quo! I personally guarantee the predictable reaction!
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