Young people turn against their parents' 'church lite'

Lexington Herald Leader ^ | 5/16/04 | John Leland

[kjam22]

Perhaps Moses was tired and angry and spiritually drained , and God wanted to renew the enthusiasm for the journey and the love for this people So Moses prayer was one of the means that God used to bring about His purposes for Moses' life, and for the Hebrews.

Perhaps... yet the text says that God changed his mind. So I would assume that the calvinist position would have to be that God planned all along, before the creation of the earth to change his mind at that time.... just to strengthen Moses.

[RnMomof7]

The sermon on the Mount was not for the unsaved. It was a teaching on the character of Christ to be lived by the saved.(Christ in us) .

It was not preached to a crowd of unbelievers , but to his disciples . The "crowds" were in the outer ring , the teaching was intended not for them , but for his disciples . (much as a church service should be organized. The intended audience the the faithful, with the others listening ...instead of the other way around)

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Here is an interesting link on the beatitudes

here

[RnMomof7]

Oh yeah... as you read farther in this thread the things I've said... that will become evident I think.

Good you scared me for a minute :>)

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

I wish I didn't agree with you.

[kjam22]

The sermon on the Mount was not for the unsaved. It was a teaching on the character of Christ to be lived by the saved.(Christ in us) . It was not preached to a crowd of unbelievers , but to his disciples .

you're kidding right?

Ummm... try reading Chapter 7 verse 28. You think in 5:2 "he opened up his mouth and taught them" refers only to the disciples??

The disciples weren't anymore saved at that time than the crowd was. Several of them may not have even been true believers at that time. The Holy Spirit lived in none of them. Many in the crowd may have eventually been believers who received the Holy Spirit too. I think you're making a silly assumption.

[11th Earl of Mar]

the pastor and the music director were trying their hardest to create a blended service for everybody.

Seems to be a very hard thing to do.

How do you blend the Lawrence Welk Show with modern music to make people want to attend your church?

[11th Earl of Mar]

Do you understand the compromise of the gospel that is done in Willowcreek to have that growth?

There is no worship time on Sundays because worship makes the unsaved "uncomfortable", they allow a Muslin to preach there on their podium.

And... Willowcreek is also the church that brought in Bill Clinton to speak at their men's meeting.

I think they have gone beyond "watered down" to the point that they are "all water."

[Fiddlstix]

BTTT

[RnMomof7]

You did not answer the quest I asked you. I posted scripture that you failed to comment on, so I try again

We need to realize that the scriptures are written by men for men. God wants to communicate with man in a way that man understands . We know he does not have wings or hands or feet to walk in the garden. Those anthropomorphisms  are there so man can relate to God and have an understanding of him.

So, do you believe the scriptures lie about the nature of God? Do you believe that God is not immutable as is taught by the churches as a part of Gods nature?

If God is not faithful to his word, then how do you know the promise of salvation will hold?

Consider this. God chose the means of salvation and the line of the Messiah before the foundations of the world.. Being omniscient would he not have foreseen that all but Moses in that line would be destroyed... is Moses mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus ?

Do you also deny the Foreknowledge of God?

lets try the scripture again

Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Num 23:19   God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God is faithful to all His covenants

1Sa 15:29   And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: </for he [is] not a man, that he should repent. Hbr 6:18   That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Hbr 13:8   Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

(So the line could not have been changed )

Jam 1:17   Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

KJAM if God is mutable and changes , why would you believe the promise of salvation?

[RnMomof7]

And... Willowcreek is also the church that brought in Bill Clinton to speak at their men's meeting. I think they have gone beyond "watered down" to the point that they are "all water."

I was going to mention that , but it would have been piling on :>)

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

I attended a Brethern service once and found it extremely boring -- except that I was touched by the devotion of this people. The women wore head coverings and I didn't care for that at all. But it was not significant. What mattered was that these people were bowing in humility before their Creator. They were praising and worshiping their Savior. They acknowledged their sins. They asked for forgiveness and guidance. They sought to know God and to reflect His holiness as well as His love. It was a spiritual experience.

I attended a charismatic service with a "speaking-in-tongues" friend of mine. She was a very dear and spiritual friend. She loved God with all her heart. I do not believe she had a special prayer language, but I do believe God loved her, and that he understood her humanness and the sincerity of her heart. Her church was full of lively worshipers just like her. I had a great time worshipping in my own way amongst these "crazy" people.

Man looks at the outward appearance. God looks at the heart. That's why I think we can miss the truth on both sides of this issue (I'm not saying that you are missing it). Church should not have to be "sold" to people. If it does, then it is not the NT kind, in my opinion. A church that is dying needs an injection of life from the only One who can give true spiritual life. It does not need to buy fancy pre-packaged productions that include the latest Hollywood flick. At the same time, God does not need us to abuse ourselves with boredom either. But bowing humbly before God is not boring to those truly connected to Him.

I hope this makes sense.

[RnMomof7]

Who is the them ? It is the disciples , there were others that listened..but the intended audience was his disciples..you need to red it

The outer ring that listened to the teaching , but they were not the target

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

If you remember how to diagram a sentence , the "them" refers back to the disciples.

There are unsaved people that think "keeping" the beatitudes will get them into heaven , when in fact they flow from our salvation (like the works in James)

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

God is the Father to the saved, not the unsaved. The unsaved can never obey this command

I do not think that you can assume the disciples were not saved. Jesus intentionally drove off the non elect from his disciples. He kept all those the father gave Him. It says that they were all astonished at his doctrine, but it said nothing of them following Him does it?

Jesus was a curiosity to most , not the saviour

As for the audience..they were the same ones that yelled crucify him

[kjam22]

We need to realize that the scriptures are written by men for men.

There's your first mistake. I believe the scriptures were written by God and that he used men to pen them. I don't believe they were authored by men.

2ndly... I'll address your text when you address mine. The bible says clearly that God changed his mind at the request of Moses. Now you can twist that all you want, you can claim that the text was written by men, you can rationalize it away by asking me why I would then believe in the promise of salvation.... and whatever else you want to say.... the THE BIBLE SAYS GOD CHANGED HIS MIND.

There was a bumper sticker that was popular a few years back. Well, probably not popular with the calvinists.... but it simply said... "Prayer Changes Things". I believe it changes more than just our relationship with God.

[kjam22]

Matthew 7:28 "And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, not as their scribes."

That's the "them and their" thing again I suppose.

I'm serious, you are really twisting scripture here.

[11th Earl of Mar]

I try not to be one of those who tell others how they have to worship God.

What ever music people want to use to do it is fine with me.

My main gripe is with "entertainment" music in churches. The choir, the soloist, etc.

I don't recall ever being taught in Scripture to worship God by watching someone else do it.

[kjam22]

Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

I can underline as well as you can.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

I agree 100%.

[11th Earl of Mar]

My main gripe is with "entertainment" music in churches. The choir, the soloist, etc.

That being said, I go to a large church [7500 adults] that makes worship music very contemporary and enjoyable. But you will never find someone onstage singing while the audience is expected to sit down and be entertained.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

My church does. When I watch someone else worship it does inspire me. But I do not like the entertainment factor when it is just about packaging church so you can fill the pews so you can fill the offering plates. It is not hard to tell the difference.

[HarleyD]

"The purpose of prayer is not to change God's will but to conform ours to His."

Wonderfully said. I bite my lip every Sunday during prayer time when we run down the laundry list of things we want God to do. Rarely have I requested anything and I have refused (nicely) to lead the group because our focus is wrong IMHO. Then on the way home my poor wife is subject to one of my 5 minute lectures about prayer. :O)