2004 Crop Circle Season Live Thread

Crop Circle News ^ | Sunday, May 16, 2004

[TigersEye]

... when young and fresh many crop plants will bend instead of breaking.

You grew up around corn and wheat and you can say that with, presumably, a straight face? You certainly learned to shuck and jive! ;^)

[Ichneumon]

[Ooh, *this* should be entertaining. Please present this "convincing debunking" which shows that human production of a particular pattern would be "impossible".]

Entertain me and show me how you leaped from "rope and wood boards" to "human production?" Put down your Cracker Jacks box and think hard on how to stretch the chasm from a specific to a broad generality like that.

Excuse me, I mistook you for someone who might actually support his claim when asked to do so, instead of whining about the wording as an excuse to avoid responding. My error. Won't happen again.

[Ichneumon]

It sure has hit some nerves that I would ask some logical questions on this chat board.

No, asking logical questions is fine. What has actually "hit some nerves" is when you wrote "Whatever happened to critical thinking?" in order to denigrate the conclusions of those who *have* looked into this matter already and already developed informed opinions on it.

I found the "whatever happened to Google" response to be right on the money in response to your snotty question, since it tried to gently point out to you that rather than insult those who have expressed their considered opinions on this issue, perhaps you should have done a quick web check to see whether there might already be good reasons for such conclusions.

[TheLurkerX]

That doesn't account for the ones that are bent, not broken, and almost woven together. Some crops have undergone chemical changes, or show evidence of being under extreme energy burst. I've seen all the plank and string guys, but a lot of the circles still show signs of having been exposed to something altogether different.

[Ichneumon]

That doesn't account for the ones that are bent, not broken, and almost woven together.

Sure it does. See some of the other replies in this thread.

And whether a stalk is "bent" or "broken" is highly subjective, unless it's completely snapped into two, which is most unlikely. For example, one "true believer" website offers this photo as evidence of stalks that were "bent, not broken":

They helpfully label the picture as "node bending". That looks sharply kinked enough that it wouldn't be out of line to call them "broken". "Bent" implies a more gentle transition.

Another "on the scene" report from another circle observes that "The oat stalks bent at right angles. They weren't broken." Maybe it's just me, but "bent at right angles" sounds like a broken (but not snapped) stalk.

Meanwhile, here's a photo of an indisputably man-made crop circle:

Now *that's* clearly "bent, not broken".

Some crops have undergone chemical changes, or show evidence of being under extreme energy burst.

According to whom, exactly? There are a lot of urban legends surrounding crop circles. Almost all of the wilder claims about "chemical changes", etc. trace back to W.C. Levengood, who's rather a crank on the subject. Double-blind attempts to reproduce his "findings" have been unable to do so. And some of his "findings" fall into the "no duh" category, like noting that seeds from flattened "crop circle" plants are often stunted if the crop circle appeared while the crop was young. Well no kidding -- squashing over crop plants is hardly do wonders for their health and productivity. Fold over your rose bushes and see how well it makes roses in three months.

I've seen all the plank and string guys, but a lot of the circles still show signs of having been exposed to something altogether different.

A lot of the "signs of having been exposed" etc. are urban legends, sloppy science, etc. And after the first few reports about "strange radiation" and so on, I wouldn't put it past pranksters to start spraying bleach or whatever on their works so as to keep the True Believers freaking out.

Article written by a prankster, detailing how the True Believers will see what they want to see, and overstate the difficulties (also a passage about not leaving footprints): Crop Circle Confession.

Sensible column about crop circles: Straight Dope

As for the "chemical changes", etc.: Overview of Levengood's results.

[Starboard]

Usually 2-6 people. A complicated circle can be completed in one night.

Are you aware of any botched circles (i.e., obvious imperfections) and are there pictures of same? Just curious.

[Ichneumon]

I don't need to hear about it when I can (and have) seen numerous high quality photos that show crisp lines and no disturbance outside the design. Having searched extensively for wild plants in the non-geometric patterns of wildland plant populations I know that the smallest disturbance sticks out like a sore thumb. In the set pattern of a cultivated field it sticks out more.

I see "crisp lines" and "no disturbance outside the design" in the following photo, despite the fact that "the smallest disturbance" should "stick out like a sore thumb":

Nor do I see any footprints leading to/from it. So I take it that one's not man-made?

Right. The extensive guidelines I suggested. A fixed point of reference would have to be established that rose above the crop for visibility or access by line, not obstructed by the crop.

No one said the prankster's weren't prepared. I've seen even more elaborate pranks from bored college students, though, especially in engineering colleges, so planning and executing a fancy piece of "crop art" wouldn't cause anyone to break a sweat.

A lot of crap to drag into a field set up and take out unobserved.

Not at all -- written plans, and some tape measures, mostly. See: Crop Circle Confession and Circlemakers' tools. For really fancy designs, add a bundle of tall plant stakes.

You then have to lay down the graphing squares on the field in order to copy from the original. It's pretty hard to transfer from one scale to the other if you don't have a good perspective from above.

Not at all -- ten-by-ten foot squares would be easy to see at a glance and work on by sight from ground level. Or even larger probably.

Each 'artist' would have to have that and would have to stay focused on which part he was replicating.

Sure, but that's easy enough to do.

[Long Cut]

Sure. See Ichneumon's post #96 on this very thread for some examples. I'm certain he can point to others.

[Long Cut]

Oh, and BTW,

Although Ichneumon may sometimes SEEM abrasive, it is only his frustration with psuedoscience, and the wrong beliefs that such hucksters involved in it generate, coming out.

I've never seen a poster on FR who can back himself up like he can. If he posts a statement, rest assured he's got it already sourced and peer-reviewed out the wazoo.

I have seen him literally post HUNDREDS of links and photos in a single post to prove his point.

He simply has NO tolerance for conmen or hucksters who use psuedoscience or faked data to fool the uninformed who honestly seek good science.

[MHGinTN]

Perhaps, but we had an incident near my home just two weeks ago during the dark hours when a major thunder and lightening storm storm series was rolling through all night. Three separate oats fields, clear at dusk (relative drives right past them on the way home in the evening), were pocked with patterns at sunrise. These patterns were several acres in size, arrayed over rolling terrain, and interlocked in nature. Our local MUFON leader chalked them up to 'caused by wind patterns'. Of course, this is the easiest explanation, but one wonders how the wind did it over rolling terrain, remaining within fenced enclosures completely, but coming as close as three yards to the fences in places.

[Starboard]

Just read #96. Interesting post, but somewhat confused by the following:

But as for what can be done with simple tools, anyone with a basic Geometry background knows that you can construct almost any pattern with great precision...Furthermore, the "geometric precision" of crop circles is often overstated."

Not trying to be hypercritical, just trying to get some insights.

[Long Cut]

I saw your post, and just did a brief Google search, with no results, but I HAVE seen photos of the tracks tornados leave on fresh fields...a moving, spiral or corkscrew pattern, nearly perfectly round.

it's possible that, in a strong storm in Tennessee (where I assume you are), some smaller "wind devils" or mini-tornados created the marks you saw.

Certainly tornados are famous for their uncanny ability to wreck one structure and leave another nearby one alone. Just a possibility.

[Long Cut]

Ike, you got a response?

FWIW, it is indeed possible to create patterns of great prescision, but in the actual execution, sometimes mistakes happen. Pehaps the circlemakers overestimated the size of the field, and had to compensate "on-the-fly".

[MHGinTN]

I live in 'Boones Creek', a suburb of Johnson City, in the Tri-Cities region. I reported the things to the local press who had not been contacted and also called our regional MUFON chapter. We didn't get any press on the things and no air pix were taken to my knowledge. The local farmer (my cousin actually) who owned one of the fields said 'wind' was the cause. He ought to know, but the patterns were strikingly complex in nature. I wondered if lighteneing, running along just below ground, could cause such stuff, but it isn't likely either. Puffs of downdrafts is the most likely explanation if the wind did make the patterns. Anyone out that night would have been certifiable because of the constant lightening and thunder and heavy rains. 'Sheeting rain' might also have been at fault. I just don't know how the intricacies could have been possible with wind or sheet rain.

[little jeremiah]

Some people are very very frightened of anything which is not in their science books. Some people are terrified underneath their rationality that maybe, just maybe, something or Someone might exist that they can't measure, probe, put under a microscope or periscope or CAT scan, triturate or grow in a petri dish. How can the mind grasp something that can't be measured by tools invented by human brains?

Often such people like nothing better than to go on "debunking sprees" and belittle anyone, anywhere who does not pay obeisance to whatever science currently tells us is the truth.

[Starboard]

Pehaps the circlemakers overestimated the size of the field, and had to compensate "on-the-fly"

Hey, sounds familiar. I can relate to the concept of on-the-fly "adjustments" :)

[Tigercap]

Excellent response!

[little jeremiah]

I'm not claiming that crop circles are not man made, or that all crop circles (or any of them) are made by guys in space ships. I have no idea, never looked into it, and obviously bunches of them are made by regular humans, maybe all of them.

Just musing about why people love to "debunk" - they're often as intense and agressive about it as Jehovah's Witnesses are with their Awakes and Watchtowers!

(No disrespect meant to any Jehovah's Witness lurkers...)

[Long Cut]

I think you're onto something with the puffs and downdrafts. I spent some time in Tenn., outside Memphis back in the day. I've SEEN the thunderstorms out there. Tornados, too.

Downdrafts (called "microbursts" by the weatherguessers) can indeed create those patterns. They can be incredibly powerful, but very localized. Some have brought down airplanes. The idiot media calls them "wind shear" without further explanation. Microbursts are common in strong storms like you describe.

If you can, try to find pictures of the trails tornados leave in fields as they pass. It's very interesting...almost looks like they were made with a pencil.

[vezke]

So the aliens are communicating with us?

Why not just use the television? Is TV beyond their technical expertise? How about any of the other means of communication.

We just need to use the process of elimination. If it isn't humans than who is it? A bovine recreational activity possibly? Disgruntled sheep? Pigs demonstrating their intellectual prowess?

Aliens managing to travel from distant galaxies with farmers crops as their only means of communication!? I think so...