Posted on 05/15/2004 11:04:59 AM PDT by gandalftb
German resistance had a chain of command coming from its highly organized army, that once broken or hired, could be mopped up. The effective parts of the Iraqi Army were vaporized and the militia-based remnants ran off or were largely ignored. Those raggedy militia elements are now emerging and are hard to target. There are probably more parallels to Iraq in Vietnamization. Let's hope it works better.
You know, Colonels and Generals are commissioned by Congress, my Marine experience is that they don't worry much about their effect on presidential politics. They're too consumed with being Marines. I don't know if the other services feel that way. And what about Wesley Clark, I heard he was always looking out for his political backside? What say you FR?
Yes, Of course! We are attempting to reapply one of the most failed aspects of Vietnam in Iraq, despite the wishes of our military.
,Whoever defeated Germany, Russia or the US. is absolutely irrelevant to our high risk gamble in Iraq. Germany was defeated. Iraq was not, and that’s all that’s relevant to our current problem. Whatever the status of 1st Mar Div, I MEF, or the 82nd is tactical, not strategic. Strategically, we opted to quit the war early.
The Iraqi resistance has the advantage of support from Syria, al Qaeda and Iraq. This will be a long simmering problem, tying up our troop for years. We will probably come up with some sort of positive results, but there will be so much grey in our “victory” that it will be un-saleable to the Arab world as a model. That’s a big failure in my mind.
The other big failure is that this will be so prolonged, muddied and political that there is absolutely zero chance of attempting a military defeat of another terrorist nation. They know this so there will be next to zero intimidation that we can level on them as well.
I think that after Iraq, there will be no consensus on what went wrong in Iraq. People will lose sight of the 10k lb elephant in the room and pick at TACTICS, calling them strategy. The elephant is that we never defeated Iraq, didn’t enter many cities and neighborhoods. That’s indicative of a superpower in dissolution.
You sound like you just like brutal killing!
We see vary opposite sides of the same coin my friend. My Marine experience is that they don’t “respect” the effect of the short term horizon of presidential politics on the death of their men. They’re “faithfully” and rightfully consumed with avoiding a repetition of the lunacy of Vietnamization
And in the case of Fallujah, they’ll go so far as to prematurely insert a skeletal Fallujah “brigade” rather that sacrifice more of their men to a CIC gone wobbly. God Bless those guys!
That’s such an emotionally shrill and factually baseless outburst that you sound like a Bush sycophant reflexing form a first time recognition of his greatest failure.
Vietnamization failed when it didn't include the whole fight from invasion/bombing of all enemy areas and mining Haiphong. Iraq will fail too if we don't stop Syria and Iran.
Since Viet Nam, the Marines have learned to fight smarter, they will solve the Falluja riddle.
Rather than dissolution, America's best days are coming. I think you're crystal ball needs polishing.
Crystal ball, is that what he is using!
Guess you missed the press release from the Coalition saying that the attack rate on our troops in the first two weeks of May was DOUBLE what it was in previous months.
Watched Geronimo last night..reflecting..
from the skills of the Apache scouts who assayed Power and went over to the U.S. Calvary,
Too the craft of the Apache when the war dance had finished.
Thinking..."Ya..thats exactly what those schemers in Iraq need,
A U.S. Division of Full blooded Apache's on them...
And..as Robert Duvall [Al Seiber] in the movie comments,
"You get into a fight with the Apache......you save the last bullet for yourself"
I couldn’t agree more. The problem is that we didn’t “let them” apply what they learned.
The 1st Mar Div was about to defeat Fallujah, setting a pattern for the rest of central Iraq. Once the Iraqi council (with different priorities than ours) swarmed Bremer, we empowered him to override what the Marines decided. We empowered him to override the lessons the Marines leaned from Vietnam. The Marines didn’t get a chance to exercise how they learned to fight smarter. They didn’t get a chance to defeat Iraq before implanting a civilian government (same as Vietnam).
There were no “overwhelming” tactical problems. The Marines were about to destroy the Fallujahn resistance will minimal civilian casualties. There were only “political” problems. We decided that we couldn’t afford another few dozen KIAs that week, and we decided that we couldn’t afford the months of disturbances it would take to reapply the Marine tactics across central Iraq. Bad decisions IMO.
I fight the tendency to sound disillusioned and spread disillusionment. We can still change. I’m just uncertain how to highlight our core problem and its consequences, without appearing to promote disaster. After all, Dickens Christmas Carol could come across as fatalistic, but it influenced Scrooge with the ghost of Christmas future. [smile]
Just unleash the Marines that are there for Gods sake. Screw the Apaches.
Grow a brain and respond to me directly you coward.
They did...in concert with ROE and Collateral damage protocals.
B-52's and Fuel air explosives....surviving Iraqi's clutching each other in deshevled mode..crying and pleading.
Its a P.C. war...but still..Overhead Apache's and Cobras could have chewed Hamdi up but good....to bad they are not employed more ...
Less Humvee's and monies to Chalabi and company...
Not enough Rotar noise in Iraq.
Too many Minarets still standing : )
I don’t like your methods of talking around me rather than to me, but I don’t know you well enough to insult your courage or intelligence. I’m sorry.
Maybe I’m missing the joke, but there ware no FAE in Fallujah, just an order to the Marines to use nothing but small arms in self defense to attack a city.
Hamdi gets unhinged by airpower...its a facet of power projection the U.S. could have employed more..ie [Cobras and Apache's],
Its a P.C. somethin war...too bad...DOD,Darpa and other Black op project centres have great goodies for masses who use deception and hiding as a logistic/battle tactic.
Just roll out the Phase Array dishes...and Microwave them.
That would snap the Iraqi's into tommorrow real quick.....with low collateral damage too.
Women and children.the aged get a home to return to....problem solved : )
and we are not done in Fallujah - if we could just bring this Sadr thing to some conclusion, I think we would see action in Fallujah again - we know where the bad guys are holed up I think.
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