Posted on 05/14/2004 9:49:55 PM PDT by neverdem
After I wrote a column a few weeks ago about the 1999 shootings at Columbine High School, I got e-mail from Tom Klebold, the father of Dylan Klebold, one of the shooters. Tom objected to the column, but the striking thing about his note was that while acknowledging the horrible crime his son had committed, Tom was still fiercely loyal toward him. Which prompts this question: If your child commits a crime like that, what do you do with the rest of your life?
Tom and Susan Klebold have not really spoken to the press about all this. But the lawsuits against them are being settled, and they trust The New York Times, which is the paper they read every day, so they were willing to have a long conversation with me this week.
They are a well-educated, reflective, highly intelligent couple (Dylan was named after Dylan Thomas). During our conversation they discussed matters between themselves, as well as answering my questions. Their son, by the way, is widely seen as the follower, who was led by Eric Harris into this nightmare.
The Klebolds describe the day of the shootings as a natural disaster, as a "hurricane" or a "rain of fire." They say they had no intimations of Dylan's mental state. Tom, who works from home and saw his son every day, had spent part of the previous week with Dylan scoping out dorm rooms for college the next year.
When they first heard about the shootings, it did not occur to them that Dylan could be to blame. When informed, Susan said, "we ran for our lives." They went into hiding, desperate for information. "We didn't know what had happened," she said. "We couldn't grieve for our child."
That first night, their lawyer said to them, "Dylan isn't here anymore for people to hate, so people are going to hate you." Even as we spoke this week, Tom had in front of him the poll results, news stories and documents showing that 83 percent of Americans had believed the parents were partly to blame. Their lives are now pinioned to this bottomless question: Who is responsible?
They feel certain of one thing. "Dylan did not do this because of the way he was raised," Susan said. "He did it in contradiction to the way he was raised."
After the shooting, they faced a simple choice: to move away and change their names, or to go back and resume their lives. Susan thinks about leaving every day. "I won't let them win," Tom said. "You can't run from something like this."
So they live in the same house and work at the same jobs. Susan works in the community college system. "It's amazing how long it took me to get up and say my name at a meeting, to say, `I'm Dylan Klebold's mother,' " Susan says. "Dylan could have killed any number of the kids of people that I work with."
In general, Tom said, "most people have been good-hearted." Their friends rallied around. Their neighbors call to warn them if an unfamiliar car lurks in the neighborhood. There is a moment of discomfort when they hand over a credit card at a store, but there have been few bad scenes. One clerk looked at the name and remarked to Susan, "Boy, you're a survivor, aren't you."
The most infuriating incident, Susan said, came when somebody said, "I forgive you for what you've done." Susan insists, "I haven't done anything for which I need forgiveness."
When they talk about the event, they discuss it as a suicide. They acknowledge but do not emphasize the murders their son committed. They also think about the signs they missed. "He was hopeless. We didn't realize it until after the end," Tom said. Susan added: "I think he suffered horribly before he died. For not seeing that, I will never forgive myself."
They believe that what they call the "toxic culture" of the school — the worship of jocks and the tolerance of bullying — is the primary force that set Dylan off. But they confess that in the main, they have no explanation.
"I'm a quantitative person," said Tom, a former geophysicist. "We're not qualified to sort this out." They long for some authoritative study that will provide an answer. "People need to understand," Tom said, "this could have happened to them."
My instinct is that Dylan Klebold was a self-initiating moral agent who made his choices and should be condemned for them. Neither his school nor his parents determined his behavior. Now his parents have been left with the terrible consequences. I'd say they are facing them bravely and honorably.
YES, QUITE SO.
HOwever, my univ library boss did not have a TV all his kids growing up years. Would go to a neighbors to watch special things.
Also, if parents haven't taught their kids how to make discerning Godly choices before 10 years old, then they are in trouble.
Parents during the demonic years of Rome's rule with Ceaser as god were able to raise Godly kids. Many great prophets in the Bible failed to do so.
IT ALL DEPENDS ON ONE'S PRIORITIES. YES. IT'S D*MN HARD!
AND, BY GOD'S GRACE, I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENS ME. IF RAISING KIDS SUCCESSFULLY ISN'T ONE OF THE TOP OF THOSE THINGS, THEN SOMETHING IS DREADFULLY WRONG TO BEGIN WITH.
I've often pondered this issue of raising kids in an evil culture. I think I agree with Francis Schaeffer. I'd raise Godly rebels.
Devoted to God and cleverly rebellious against the Godless, demonic culture. IN IT BUT NOT OF IT.
Jews have been doing it successfully for centuries. Amish less well.
Those in churches which do not teach THE WORD and especially those in churches where the leadership and the majority of the congregation fail to ACT OUT THE WORD--likely are also failing at this crucial task of raising Godly children in a demonic culture.
It's not easy. I know it's far from easy. I've seen and had to deal with tons of the failures. I'm painfully aware. And I've also seen very few, relatively who've done it well and right regardless. But that does assure me that it's possible.
I just saw last night on the HGTV thing about the blind man that was single father to 3 kids--oldest a 17 year old girl. Wrote the TV remodeling group and was chosen. And the guy was incredible. Blind or not, he still went overboard doing what he could to help the crew remodeling his kids bedrooms. The MC lady said she'd never met a man more impressive as a man and a father than that man. Somehow, blind or not, he had succeeded with those kids in this culture. IT IS POSSIBLE.
It is NOT easy.
Maybe in many situations a triage decision has to be made. Some thing just have to fall by the wayside.
I think clean and order are good.
BUT I'VE LEARNED, CLEANLINESS AND ORDER are far from ALWAYS the priority.
Many times, It's worth asking, in 3 weeks, 3 months or 3 years, what will I care if I let XYZ go another week, month or whatever.
How can I involve my kid in this task in a way that affords us some dialogue time.
How can I share this problem with my kid in a way that draws us closer together?
Asking questions like that and doggedly digging up solutions is worth it.
Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.
In other words, know your child well enough that you know how to point him in the right direction.
That takes TIME, listening and talking. Only then can we hope to point a child in the way he should go.
My two kids were as different as night and day. I did NOT discipline them in the same ways, but in the way that was right for them. As a result, they are both living well as young adults.
Or all of the above, including POTUS, like the IMPEACHED ex-42.
YES! I DO AGREE with Jim Dobson.
Some kids come out of the womb after for months having scratched their initials on the inside of the womb even, and probably repeatedly.
I understand that. I've dealt with such kids. It is incredibly difficult.
AND ESPECIALLY WITH THOSE KIDS, THEY MUST BE REACHED, BONDED WITH EARLIER AND BETTER than average kids, imho.
AND USUALLY, PARENTS ARE NOT ALERT EARLY ENOUGH TO THE SPECIALIZED HYPER INTENSE NEEDS OF THOSE KIDS UNTIL IT'S ALREADY MONTHS TO A FEW YEARS LATE.
But, PRAISE GOD, there is hope. You did a tremendous job ANYWAY. And, there WILL BE FRUIT. You did the best you knew how to do--as many parents do. And at some point, we have to trust God with our failures as we do in all areas of our lives. And when parents have done the Godly best they knew--INCLUDING PROVOKING NOT THEIR CHILDREN TO WRATH--then I do believe that eventually God will bring fruit into the child's life.
My best inadequate info guess is that you were playing catchup all his life having missed the evidence early enough that his requirements of parents were going to be way above average.
I think in many cases, the Dad or both parents need to take even the very young kid off into the wilderness for a two week intense Outward Bound type of family only or two family camping/backpacking trip. And in the normal course of the daily life, the toddler acts out the defiance, the you say black, I say white sorts of things.
And very patiently but VERY FIRMLY *AND* LOVINGLY the parent SHAPES the child's EXPRESSION of that personality trait/quirk/whatever. It usually has to be intense and often a shaping process like using behavior mod to teach a pidgeon to play ping pong WITH TONS OF PRAYER ALL THE TIME UNDER ONE'S BREATH OR SILENTLY; TONS OF HUGS; TONS OF FITTING LIMITS BUT ALSO TONS OF LAVISH LOVE AND AFFECTION, AFFIRMATION OF ALL WORTH AFFIRMING.
When teaching a pigeon to play ping pong, one starts by rewarding a hungry pigeon when the bird STARTS JUST SLIGHTLY TO TURN IT'S HEAD IN THE ****DIRECTION**** OF THE PING PONG BALL. After a few times like that, one waits until the pigeon turns a little MORE toward the ping pong ball. etc. until the pigeon is pecking the ball back and forth across the net.
Many challenges with children require such patient, very small step shaping of their troublesome behavior.
I don't have enough information but here's a blind arse shot at a possible approach.
David, I've noticed that when any of us say vanilla, you say chocolate or if we say up, you say down; we say right, you say left.
Sometimes, that's OK. And sometimes it's not. We need to help you learn when it's which. We also need to help you learn ways of saying opposite things which leave you closer to people instead of more alone.
We are going to experiment with a lot of ways of helping you learn that. We will do that because we Love you. We do not want you to grow up and be all alone in the world because you are habitually opposite from everyone around you.
Much of what we will do with you will be frustrating, uncomfortable and even very annoying. We will help you learn to control those feelings and to master them before they master you and make you their slave.
etc. etc. etc.
Then I'd prayerfully come up with as many stragegies for doing so as I could carry around in my quiver. And on the campout, ALMOST every incident would become an instant classroom exercise.
At first, one would be shooting for a difference in behavior and tone regardless of inner reality. The last week one would focus on affirming the right attitude and tone and extinguishing the bad attitude, tone and behaviors.
First I would model a variety of ways to have said, expressed the same thing in more acceptable ways. Then I'd role play until he copied such sufficiently for the moment's goal.
By the end of the 2nd week, I'd think that one could just say something like--Try a different way of expressing that, please.
If needed, I'd have made provision to extend the campout to a full month if at all possible and that was the level of the seriousness and extent of the problem.
I realize it's too late for the above at a toddler age for your kids. But I suspect others would benefit from it.
As Holy Spirit reminds me, I'll pray for your son.
Blessings.
Certainly I've seen great kids come from awful situations in the home.
And, I've seen awful kids come from parents who were MOSTLY great parents. But they still fell down in key ways.
I have still personally NEVER seen awful kids come from parents who did even 90-98% of especially the core issues right.
THANKS FOR YOUR WONDERFULLY CANDID INSIGHTS AND HONESTY.
The comment on laziness is so true. It's the same way in marriages. We don't FEEL LIKE taking out the trash or extending ourselves to serve our spouse. So we let it slide or whatever . . . for the nth time.
Builds up fast.
A *SLIGHT* QUIBBLE ABOUT "NO GUARANTEE." i AGREE IN PRINCIPLE.
However, IF THE PARENTS WILL DO THE KEY CONDITIONAL PARTS, THEN I BELIEVE ****GOD**** DOES GUARANTEE THAT THEY WILL GROW UP IN THE WAY THEY SHOULD GO.
Now, I heard my favorite pastor teach one time that in the Greek, it is clear that THE WAY THEY SHOULD GO INCLUDES what is tailor made for that child's personality and destiny. Much grief to all concerned has been a dad trying to make a foot ball player out of a piano player or vice versa.
Much appreciated your msg.
"The New York Times", I take it that in a week or so we will find out that this guy made this story up.
Great parents. No one knows why their one child out of 5 went wrong. They did the same thing 5 times, and failed once. Not their fault.
They copied a movie that was made after their deaths? That's talent.
See comment# 70.
I'm not nearly as enlightened as some ... I've always maintained that you don't "raise" kids, you just live with them.
I'll say my mother was misguided instead of an idiot.
I used to agree with her. I was an idiot.
THE RESEARCH IS CLEAR ON THIS POINT. CHILDREN WHO ARE CARRIED ON CRADLE BOARDS BY NAVAJOS OR IN A WRAP OF CLOTH IN MANY 3RD CULTURES OR IN BACKPACKS OR TUMMY PACKS--THOSE CHILDREN HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT MUCH MORE POSITIVE QUALITY OF LIFE ARISING OUT OF THAT DIFFERENCE IN CHILDCARE AND CARING IN GENERAL.
I've often heard it said that "She just loved him too much. He was spoiled rotten."
I don't believe that. LOVE IS--WHATEVER'S BEST FOR THE OTHER PERSON that's remotely healthy, honorable etc.
Catering unfittingly to a child's carnal sin nature is ****NOT**** LOVE. And some carnality requires a quick, immediate, firmly loving but maybe stern rebuke, discipline, extinguishing. Usually blatant rebellion and defiance fall in that category.
On the other hand, affirming physical affectionate contact--is priceless. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR IT. And TOYS are definitely not a substitute for it.
Typically, there's a huge setup of a problem when a father is a farmer or mechanic or truck driver or foot ball player or military officer. He's 100% all man and a fairly cold, distant, harsh man at that.
His first born son is little mister artistic and hyper sensitive, maybe even delicate. Dad sets in to insure that no sone of his turns out homo. And ends up producing just that--as much out of ignorance as stubbornness and pride.
WHEN FATHERS ARE LAVISHLY, FREELY, PERSISTENTLY FREQUENTLY AFFECTIONATE [in nonsexual, healthy ways] WITH SONS, THOSE SONS HAVE A MUCH, MUCH, MUCH LOWER LIKELIHOOD OF TURNING OUT HOMOSEXUAL. This can mean a hand on the shoulder, a firm warm touch on the upper back, shoulders or some such; even holding the sons hand more than briefly in some contexts and some ages; rubbing the son's shoulders, neck, arms, hands, feet when the son is tired or frustrated, tense; standing with arms around son facing the same situation in many contexts. Even as a teen, if the father has paved the way FROM BIRTH ON--in many contexts it's fitting. Especially if the father has trained, verbally taught the son that such is a SUPER HIGH FAMILY PRIORITY, CHRISTIAN VALUE OF VERY high priority regardless of what onlookers think--AND IF THE SON AGREES. Certainly wrestling in a non-conquest sort of way, nonintimidation sort of way is great though some sons are not very open to it.
In the scenario/situation described above, I'd counsel the father that HE MUST COMPROMISE. Yes, probably he can shape his son to be MORE masculine. HIS SON WILL NEVER BE A CARBON COPY OF HIM. ACCEPT IT. AND, worse, to some father's minds--FOR THE HEALTH AND SUCCESS AND SANITY OF THE SON, THE FATHER MUST LEARN TO DEVELOP AN APPRECIATION OF 2-3 SENSITIVE TYPE THINGS THAT THE SON IS INTERESTED IN.
IF THE FATHER WILL NOT BOND AND MATCH THE SON to some critical significant degree ON SOME OF THE THINGS THE SON IS INHERENTLY INTERESTED IN, THERE IS LITTLE LIKELIHOOD THAT THE SON WILL BRIDGE MUCH TOWARD OWNING MORE OF THE FATHER'S TYPES OF MASCULINITY.
THE MAIN KEY THING IS FOR THE FATHER to spend TONS OF TIME with the son doing almost anything. Take the son on errands. Affirm SOMETHINGS about the son at least 5-15 ways on that one trip. Show interest in at least 3-5 things the son is interested in on that trip. Touch the son warmly at least 10-20 times that trip. Ask the son for his opinions or feelings in a NO THREAT way at least 5-15 times that trip.
Ask the son to help with various chores even if you have to do 98% of the work. Avoid just having his body nearby. ENGAGE him in as much dialogue as possible. Every natural opportunity and maybe some created ones, touch the son affirmly and verbalize affirming tones and words.
ESTABLISH SUCH A CLOSE BOND that the son would never dream of being greatly askew from the father's values, much less in rebellion against them. Because, walking with the father through the chores and scenes of life will have been as close as one could get to sitting in God's lap. Few people are so possessed or such clueless idiots as to reject that.
imho.
BTW, I spend so much time on sons for a variety of reasons--mostly because they seem most at risk for mangled or inadequate quality treatment in our culture because so many dads had such poor dads and parenting.
Really?
Then why all the colors and BIG font?
THANKS TONS FOR YOUR QUALITY REPLY.
My heart goes out to you.
YES. YOU ARE RIGHT. SOME ARE SO INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO JUST KEEP UP WITH ENERGY WISE. And, one CANNOT DO SO ALWAYS.
Thankfully, USUALLY 75% or even 60% of the time is sufficient. With some children, it must be 80-90% of the time unless and until one is over a difficult stage or has established internally in the child some adjustments.
Certainly with autism and related problems, genetics, dynamics--my STAUNCH assertions fall apart. HOWEVER, MY ASSERTIONS ARE STILL THE *BEST* WAYS TO HANDLE SUCH, NEVERTHELESS. Doing less will only result in worse.
It's just that many times, even the absolute best with situations like autism--will still be inadequate.
In such cases, I think one has to enlist and train siblings and extended family members with the best professional inputs. That's a major chore and expense in many ways.
But I have seen families do it.
TONY CAMPOLLO raised now Harvard graduates in novel ways. The son was voted among the best dressed at Harvard I think more than one year. THEY ALWAYS BOUGHT THEIR CLOTHES AT THRIFT STORES.
Tony and a crew of, I forget, 5-6 other couples, families lived near each other. All were Yuppies. I forget the percentage, but I think they lived on like 10-20% of their incomes and pooled and devoted the rest of their incomes to 3rd world community development projects. A whole other dramatic set of stories.
But they shared mowers, cars, major tools etc.
The main point is, one CAN work out novel solutions to money issues as well as time and togetherness issues. It takes extra doing initially but is well worth is once it's up and running well.
BTW, I'm not saying ANY of this to trigger guilt in parents. If Holy Spirit convicts of laziness and selfishness, that's one thing. But hey, I've blown many things seriously in my life and some more than once.
I just know from tons of hard experience that MUCH MORE SUCCESS CAN AND MUST BE HAD with a variety of children and even SOME very difficult children--than many parents can imagine.
And, I don't have a great deal of EXTENDED patience any more with parents who are mostly selfish and lazy and blame everything on the child or circumstances or school or whatever. YES, all those things are horrid. But not as horrid as under Rome 2,000 years ago.
I much appreciate your heartfelt response. I hope you have found some solutions for your autistic child. There's certainly a lot more known about it now than 30 years ago. I think many times, joining the child in the child's area of strength--whether it's art or whatever, can do SOME SIGNIFICANT THINGS toward building a bond and communication--even if it's more intuitive and affectionate than verbal. Yes, I know, there's still a ton of 'not there' or 'not connecting' at best with most autistic children. But, one takes what one can achieve and then goes on. And, one builds on layer after layer even if the layers are too thin for one's hopes.
God's best to you.
humility and passion are not mutually exclusive.
I CARE INTENSELY about children and parenting. . . and fathers and sons have been a focus of my study and observations most of my life.
I think it's a GREAT MISTAKE to treat all siblings
EQUALLY.
CHILDREN ARE DIFFERENT. Certainly one has to be fair. But also, one has to teach that life is not particularly fair--deal with it.
In any case, some children require 2-5 times what maybe all the rest of the children required put together.
I can say that theoretically I could agree that such COULD happen.
I just KNOW that personally, in observing more than 5,000 families/children at significantly close range, I HAVE NEVER seen it such that the parents REALLY DID even mostly ALL THEY COULD HAVE DONE to bond, connect, train the child.
ENORMOUS WISDOM.
ENORMOUSLY BIBLICAL WISDOM.
ENORMOUSLY LOVING.
INFINITELY BRIEFER! LOL.
THANKS TONS AND TONS AND TONS FOR YOUR VERY APT COMMENT.
They trust the New York Times and never mentioned God, or repentence, or forgiveness. This tells me all I need to know about these folks-- they have a long, long way to go. I find it extremely sad.
The truth is that in this world, we ALL have cause for anger and are tempted to hopelessness. The answer to the problems of the world is not of the world.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
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