Pope expected to tell Bush he is wrong on Iraq: Vatican

AFP ^ | May 13, 2004

[eleni121]

Had the pope spoken out against Castro and his torture machine, against Sadaam and his torture machine, against the Sudanese muslim cult govt. and their genocide machine, etc. etc. I might listen a bit.

Since he has not, he or his surrogate should just shut up.

[beckett]

The photos will continue to haunt the nation for a long time. Although the Cardinal who compared the damage they've done to 911 is an idiot of the first rank, what we see him doing is what we can expect for many years to come from all who oppose our policies.

Those photos provide our enemies with a gruesome picture of the "ugly American." One would be hard pressed to find in all of American history a more powerful propaganda tool which we handed our enemies to use against us.

If George Bush doesn't find some way to turn this around, it will cost him his presidency, IMHO.

[webheart]

Laghi didn't say one word about the beheading of an American.

Well, that is probably because the bridges aren't being built between Islam and Christianity. He probably thinks that they wouldn't behead people if American soldiers weren't there. He might actually believe that it was in revenge for the alleged prisoner abuse. Who knows?

[evets]

whatever...

[scooter2]

The love of money is the root of all evil. The love of Allah is the root of all terrorism.

[Dr. Marten]

Bush to tell Pope that his pedaphile priests are wrong in their churches.

[gilliam]

The pope has every right to voice his opinion. He is in a position of great influence and might be able to help pacify things. I seriously doubt he is chastise the President. I seriously believe he will try to see where he can help make peace.

The Cardinal is very opinionated, and he is also pro-palistinian. He does not speak for the Holy Father.

Having said that, it is also very true that the Vatican, as a whole, is very pro-UN and wants a world government for they feel that only with one world government will there be an end to war. Their hope is that the UN can evolve into such a thing. It is very much a political opinion rooted in Christian beliefs, but it is misplaced, IMHO, and it is NOT something other Catholics must believe.

[Freee-dame]

Only when he is addressing matters of faith and morals specifically and officially as the head of the church,

...and this has almost never happened. I think that one of the few times it was in a statement concerning Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

Many people are misguided thinking that every statement of the Pope on matters of faith or morals is considered infallible by Catholics. It is not by informed Catholics.

[Protagoras]

I'll leave you to wallow in your own hate and ignorance. What you said was despicable.

[MineralMan]

"Between all the perverted priests and their support of Nazis and now Islamic terrorists, it is hard to see this Church as a force of light and good."

---

So many people believe. However, Roman Catholicism is the largest denomination of Christianity, here and worldwide. The Pope has great influence with Catholics, who believe him to be infallible.

Don't underestimate the weight of the Pope's words. He has great influence around the world, and Bush will listen to what he has to say, one world leader to another.

My own personal prediction of the course of the next six months in Iraq is different from many here on FR. I expect that the turnover of government to the Iraqis is going to happen on June 30 or shortly thereafter. Following that, I expect the Bush administration to work quite quickly to get the UN in and us out. There's an election in November, and doing this will pretty much assure Bush's reelection.

As evidence, I give you the constant reference to Islam as a "religion of peace" by Bush, the appointment of a bunch of former Hussein minions to prominent roles, and the administration's recent abject apologies for the prison "atrocities."

In reality, Bush is politically more aligned with the center than the right. We've seen lots and lots of evidence of that during the past few years.

I could be wrong, of course, but that's my prediction.

[GraceCoolidge]

Catholic politicians who are pro-choice can't take communion, or so many are advocating, because the Pope said so. Now, will people say that Catholic politicians who support the Iraq war as it is currently being pursued should also not receive communion?

This contradiction (as well as one involving capital punishment) has been debated on many threads, and people have explained and documented it far more eloquently than I can. The short version, as I understand it, is this: the abortion issue is a central tenet of the Catholic faith, and in the catechism of the Catholic church abortion is absolutely wrong. It is not a point open for interpretation, and abortion is not wrong "because the Pope said so." The moral abomination of abortion is recognized by the Catholic faith specifically in the catechism. It is a central tenet of the faith, not a statement by Pope John Paul II. The Pope's criticism of the Iraq war does not rise to the same level. The Catholic faith accepts the concept of a "just war." The issue would be whether this war meets that standard. The Pope would, apparently, say it does not, but in that issue he does not speak for the Catholic faith. I am sure other posters can express this more precisely and eloquently than I have.

By the way, I seem to remember statements from the Vatican in the past apologizing for not doing more to stop the Holocaust, or otherwise expressing remorse for a lack of action to defend victims of the Holocaust. Does anyone else remember anything like this? How is it that we were wrong not to get more involved in the 1930s and 1940s, if it is still wrong to get militarily involved today? How can the Vatican on the one hand apologize for the world not "doing more" fifty or sixty years ago, yet simultaneously criticize the U.S. for actually getting involved in Iraq now?

[kevao]

What he's interested in is conversion.

Well I'm not interested in forced conversion to Islam at the point of a knife. It would be nice if your Pope were just a little more outspoken in his condemnation of these Islamofascists and their ghoulish thirst for blood.

I don't give a rip that some Baathist murderers and Fedayeen assassins were forced to wear women's underpants on their heads. That simply pales in comparison to Muslim atrocities. And to sex with altar boys, for that matter.

[whd23]

I'll leave you to wallow in your own hate and ignorance.

Yes, I hate child-rapists and those that protect and shield them.

You're a fine one to talk about ignorance. The Pope actively supported those who shielded and enabled child-rapists. You may not think that's a big deal, but I have a problem with it.

[thoughtomator]

Why are you trying to defend the indefensible? The Church is wrong here, by its own doctrine, as well as by any standard of decency and self-respect.

[WestTexasWend]

Maybe they're hoping to set up a "Salvation for Oil" program.

Hey...don't laugh. They sold indulgences, didn't they?

[Carolinamom]

To the Pope's "We must build bridges...." sentiments: It's difficult to build bridges when Americans' charred bodies are hanging from them and an American's decapitated body lies on one. Surely, the Holy Father knows that consummate EVIL must be destroyed.

[nmh]

"Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II is expected to warn President George W. Bush when the two men meet on June 4 that his policy in Iraq is wrong and the actions of US troops are damaging efforts to bring religions closer together, a senior Vatican official revealed. "

Indeed. Let's put Saddam Insane BACK in power so he can abuse, torture and murder all he fells threatened by.

Someone needs to tell Nick Berg's family that Iraq LOVES Jews. While they are at it, tell that to Daniel Pearl's family too.

Is this nut, pope on drugs? He makes less and less sense as time goes on. What's a tad scary is that he is indirectly aiding evil with this ridiculous rhetoric.

[AngryJawa]

I find it fascinating that a man who was so instrumental in bringing down communism in the '80's cannot see a parallel in the War on Terror.

[kjvail]

Imagine if tomorrow the Pope gave this speech:

Most beloved brethren: Urged by necessity, I, Urban, by the permission of God chief bishop and prelate over the whole world, have come into these parts as an ambassador with a divine admonition to you, the servants of God. I hoped to find you as faithful and as zealous in the service of God as I had supposed you to be. But if there is in you any deformity or crookedness contrary to God's law, with divine help I will do my best to remove it. For God has put you as stewards over his family to minister to it. Happy indeed will you be if he finds you faithful in your stewardship. You are called shepherds; see that you do not act as hirelings. But be true shepherds, with your crooks always in your hands. Do not go to sleep, but guard on all sides the flock committed to you. For if through your carelessness or negligence a wolf carries away one of your sheep, you will surely lose the reward laid up for you with God. And after you have been bitterly scourged with remorse for your faults-, you will be fiercely overwhelmed in hell, the abode of death. For according to the gospel you are the salt of the earth [Matt. 5:13]. But if you fall short in your duty, how, it may be asked, can it be salted? O how great the need of salting! It is indeed necessary for you to correct with the salt of wisdom this foolish people which is so devoted to the pleasures of this -world, lest the Lord, when He may wish to speak to them, find them putrefied by their sins unsalted and stinking. For if He, shall find worms, that is, sins, In them, because you have been negligent in your duty, He will command them as worthless to be thrown into the abyss of unclean things. And because you cannot restore to Him His great loss, He will surely condemn you and drive you from His loving presence. But the man who applies this salt should be prudent, provident, modest, learned, peaceable, watchful, pious, just, equitable, and pure. For how can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matt. 15:14]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you. If you wish to be the friends of God, gladly do the things which you know will please Him. You must especially let all matters that pertain to the church be controlled by the law of the church. And be careful that simony does not take root among you, lest both those who buy and those who sell [church offices] be beaten with the scourges of the Lord through narrow streets and driven into the place of destruction and confusion. Keep the church and the clergy in all its grades entirely free from the secular power. See that the tithes that belong to God are faithfully paid from all the produce of the land; let them not be sold or withheld. If anyone seizes a bishop let him be treated as an outlaw. If anyone seizes or robs monks, or clergymen, or nuns, or their servants, or pilgrims, or merchants, let him be anathema [that is, cursed]. Let robbers and incendiaries and all their accomplices be expelled from the church and anthematized. If a man who does not give a part of his goods as alms is punished with the damnation of hell, how should he be punished who robs another of his goods? For thus it happened to the rich man in the gospel [Luke 16:19]; he was not punished because he had stolen the goods of another, but because he had not used well the things which were his. "You have seen for a long time the great disorder in the world caused by these crimes. It is so bad in some of your provinces, I am told, and you are so weak in the administration of justice, that one can hardly go along the road by day or night without being attacked by robbers; and whether at home or abroad one is in danger of being despoiled either by force or fraud. Therefore it is necessary to reenact the truce, as it is commonly called, which was proclaimed a long time ago by our holy fathers. I exhort and demand that you, each, try hard to have the truce kept in your diocese. And if anyone shall be led by his cupidity or arrogance to break this truce, by the authority of God and with the sanction of this council he shall be anathematized."
Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it."

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."
- Pope Urban II
11/27/1095

We need another Urban II

[Dog Gone]

US troops are damaging efforts to bring religions closer together, a senior Vatican official revealed.

Why on earth would we want to bring religions closer together? What exactly is he envisioning? Nuns wearing burkhas?