What did leaders expect in war - a rose garden?

St. Louis Post-Dispatch | 05/07/2004 | Bill McClellan

[Graybeard58]

I am not offended, shocked or disgusted at the photographs from Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. The Iraqi prisoners are hooded and naked. In one photograph, a prisoner is standing on a box with his arms outstretched. He has wires attached to his arms. According to the accounts I have read, he was told he would be electrocuted if he fell off the box. I imagine he was terrified. In many of the photographs, you can see American jailers smirking. My reaction is, So what?

[R. Scott]

The word "should" is used and it says there is limited and specific mil necessities where they "should not" be.

It’s obvious that you don’t know the difference between “should” and “shall”.

" The Secretary of Defense said it? And you offer the article 15 report as proof?"

Yep. In fact both Rumsfeld and Bush are at the Pentagon this morning discussing the damage caused by all of those that have an inabilty to understand and follow simple English word usage.

Yes, they are trying to repair the damage caused by young troops obeying orders, and the immense damage caused by our media.
Please explain to me how the use of the Article 15 document shows that Mr. Rumsfeld said what you claim.

[spunkets]

"the difference between “should” and “shall”."

You're being obtuse.

" Please explain to me how the use of the Article 15 document shows that Mr. Rumsfeld said what you claim."

Not only Rumsfeld, but Bush too, because they have said nothing to the contrary. It's trivial that if they had, the Article 15 would be dropped.

[Clobbersaurus]

This man is a savage. Unfit for civilized society.

[spunkets]

" Yes, they are trying to repair the damage caused by young troops obeying orders, and the immense damage caused by our media."

Military regs are the orders. They were disobeyed, and IMO, it was not mostly by young recruits, but senior noncoms and officers that failed to do their duty. The damage Bush is looking at this morning is more criminal than what is out already.

The media would have nothing to work with if the incidents never occurred. The cause and responsibility for these actions belongs to the ones that were charged with seeing that this "lord of the Flies" stuff never happens. None of the group Bush, Rumsfeld, or the Pentagon condoned, would condone, or authorized this stuff.

[rageaholic]

I agree, and I like the way you think. Muslims have not earned the right to be treated with the same standards as the rest of civilization.

Before WW2 the Japanese were the most aggressive people on the face of the earth. After they got two atomic bombs, they calmed down and joined civilization. Think about it.

[rageaholic]

Oh, right, why bother with prisons and prisoners at all? Kill all the Iraqis and let God sort them out</i?

That's a start.

[R. Scott]

What happened to “jihadists deserve no quarter!

I’m still waiting for the “Rumsfeld said” verification. Also, “Should” means “it would be nice if”, “Shall” means “You will do”.

None of the group Bush, Rumsfeld, or the Pentagon condoned, would condone, or authorized this stuff.

Not if they wanted to keep their careers. It ain’t PC.

[R. Scott]

"the difference between “should” and “shall”."

You're being obtuse.

There is nothing obtuse about the meaning of words.

It's trivial that if they had, the Article 15 would be dropped.

Article 15s are often used by the Chain of Command as a CYA measure

[weegee]

One thing I wonder is if these photos were smuggled out of Iraq, what sort of digital surveillance photos are being provided to the enemy (espionage)?

Michael Moore has made the claim that he has some people in Iraq shooting some footage for his hit piece on Bush (Farrenheit 911) AND he has pledged his support for the other side (the Iraqi "freedom fighters").

I'd be suspicious about just what the Fifth Columnists are doing to our military.

[John Frum]

In a way, I think its really a shame that we cannot harness 'japanese militarism' to fight in the war on islamists. They've been made complacent and placid today.

[spunkets]

"What happened to “jihadists deserve no quarter!"

It still stands. If they are dead, or prisoners though, they are no longer effective jihadists. Then they're cadavers, or prisoners.

" RUMSFELD: Well, the _ as the chief of staff of the Army can tell you, the guards are trained to guard people. They're not trained to interrogate, they're not _ and their instructions are to, in the case of Iraq, adhere to the Geneva Convention.
The Geneva Conventions apply to all of the individuals there in one way or another. They apply to the prisoners of war, and they are written out and they're instructed and the people in the Army train them to that and the people in the Central Command have the responsibility of seeing that, in fact, their conduct is consistent with the Geneva Conventions.
The criminals in the same detention facility are handled under a different provision of the Geneva Convention _ I believe it's the fourth and the prior one's the third.
MCCAIN: So the guards were instructed to treat the prisoners, under some kind of changing authority as I understand it, according to the Geneva Conventions?
RUMSFELD: Absolutely.

[R. Scott]

1) MCCAIN: So the guards were instructed to treat the prisoners, under some kind of changing authority as I understand it, according to the Geneva Conventions?

RUMSFELD: Absolutely.

If you actually read the applicable article in the Geneva Convention, you will discover that none of the actions taken violated those provisions - because none of the prisoners were covered by it. I have posted the definition of P.O.W. as have others.
My main gripe is with people who jump up and believe anything put out by the media talking heads and news readers, then rant about how cruel our soldiers are. As in you case, they often try to back up their perceptions with inadequate and/or misrepresented information.
I personally believe in giving the benefit of the doubt until some honest proof is tendered.

[rageaholic]

Put me in charge of that prison in Iraq and my motto will be "Roaches check in but they don't check out".

[rageaholic]

The Geneva Convention is irrelevant at Abu Ghabil prison because the Geneva Convention does not apply to Untermensch

[spunkets]

I've read them.

" because none of the prisoners were covered by it. I have posted the definition of P.O.W. as have others."

I am well aware that Iraq is an occupied country and almost everyone of the detainees is either a criminal, or an ununiformed combatant. The Iraqi army has long ago ceased to exist, along with it's ruling regime. Only a coalition govm't exists there now and it has no forces, other than those of the US, a limited Iraqi police force under it's control and a limited number of allies in arms.

Unlike the detainees from Afghanistan, the Iraqi detainees are to be considered as POWs and entitled to the appropriate GCs, until otherwise determined by the appropriate authority. Obviously many can't possibly apply. The ones that do are those that refer to humane treatment. Specifically in this case sofar, prohibitions on humiliating and degrading treatment.

The reason the Administration insists on this for Iraq is, because of their own concern for human life and their goal of leaving an intact, functional govm't that is very unfriendly to terrorists and has peaceful intents for it's neighbors. Just to mention it, the same humanitarian treatment applies to the Guantanomo pen and every jail in the US.

[Thank You Rush]

I'm coming late to the party, I guess. I agree with your points. I wish I could think as well sitting here at the keyboard as I do when I'm trying to drop off to sleep at night. There my thoughts seem quite brilliant (to me) but not so when I sit here.

What I want to say is why on earth does anyone expect anything different than what happened when we conservatives have fought for years to get the liberal left to understand that there is right and wrong in the world. There are consequences to bad behavior. The people we have seen in the published photos are of the generation the left has protected for years through the lax law enforcement of the country, the lenient/activist courts, the ACLU, the removal of any shame over immoral behavior, the behavior of a Commander in Chief who was disbarred for lying under oath and on and on.

I don't need to go on as you all know the kinds of things we have fought against. Now who screams the loudest over these photos? The left who has done all the damage to this country! They never fail us; they are transparent in their agendas and sadly now our troops and country will have to pay the cost. It is truly maddening, revolting and sickening.

I might add, who cares if the rest of the world hates us now? Does that mean we don't have to support them anymore?
Oh! if only that were true.

I know I'm leaving out my best thoughts but I hope you get the idea.

[Thank You Rush]

I forgot the most important - our education system. Why would those involved believe there would be any punishment for their behavior? They've been taught just the opposite.

[TheCrusader]

"I know I'm leaving out my best thoughts but I hope you get the idea."

Thanks for your words of wisdom, I enjoyed reading your post.

[John Frum]

Untermenschen make excellent soylent green.

[FITZ]

I have a question about all this talk of "abuse". This could be one of 2 things. Either they're some sick wierdos who get off abusing people in which case they should be tried for war crimes against the Iraqis, or they were following orders to soften up Iraqi enemy combatants for intelligence to extract information from in which case the military people who revealed this should be tried for treason against the USA.

I can see other possibilities --- Maybe very understaffed with too many prisoners --- that they did what they thought they had to do to get and keep the upper hand, or rather unprofessional types who didn't have proper supervision and training --- maybe recruiters convinced them to join the military and they had few other prospects, maybe came from rougher cruder backgrounds than some of us --- the kind that listen to and admire Stern and Jackass shows.