What did leaders expect in war - a rose garden?

St. Louis Post-Dispatch | 05/07/2004 | Bill McClellan

[Graybeard58]

I am not offended, shocked or disgusted at the photographs from Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. The Iraqi prisoners are hooded and naked. In one photograph, a prisoner is standing on a box with his arms outstretched. He has wires attached to his arms. According to the accounts I have read, he was told he would be electrocuted if he fell off the box. I imagine he was terrified. In many of the photographs, you can see American jailers smirking. My reaction is, So what?

[Kozak]

It's a good thing we didn't have all this unrestricted photography in WW2 or we would have lost that too. The FIRST Japanese prisoner at Pearl Harbor, commander of a midget sub that ran aground was interrogated with a 45 cal pistol to his head. A friends dad was in military intelligence, and was involved in interrogation of japanese prisoners of war, because he happened to be an Oriental language expert when war broke out . To his dying day, he REFUSED to tell what was involved, he did say he was "not proud of it" but that he would "do it again" to save US lives.

War is a dirty business. While I do not condone the routine mistreatment of prisoners ala how Germany treated Russians and vice versa, there are circumstances like when you are trying to prevent the death of soldiers in say an ambush, when roughing them up or using threats to break them down is neccesary.

It's kind of ridiculous to hold us to the standard of honoring every bit of the Geneva convention when we are battling barbarians who don't honor surrender ( they try to detonate themselves ), don't wear a uniform or distinquishing markings, hide among civilians, in schools, hospitals and mosques, use ambulance's to transport explosives, routinely execute non combatant's and mutilate bodies and proudly display them. Given the above THE RESTRAINT OF OUR TROOPS IS REMARKABLE, AND A CREDIT TO THEIR DISCIPLINE AND LEADERSHIP.

The reason civilized countries instituted the rules of war was that when one side ignores them, they invite this kind of chaos.

[Graybeard58]

Translate that to Iraq. Imagine that your son is about to head off in a convoy

Exactly what my son does in Iraq. Anything - and I mean anything goes as far as I'm concerned to help keep him safer.

[tet68]

Fire for effect!

Imagine a platoon of Americans crossing an open field near a ville. Sniper fire comes from the ville. An American is killed. In that situation, your sympathy for the ville is in direct proportion to your distance from it. If you're one of the guys hunkered down 100 meters from the ville, an airstrike seems prudent. If you're five miles away in battalion headquarters, an airstrike seems slightly excessive. If you're 10,000 miles away in Berkeley, an airstrike seems like a war crime.

[rageaholic]

Thats what I've been saying here on Freep. I don't give a rats ass for these subhumanoid arab prisoners. They deserve worse than humiliation, they got off lightly. If I were in charge of that prison they'd all be shot trying to escape. No cameras. Problem solved.

[LOC1]

During the American Indian wars of the 19th century, one of the most feared outcomes of being captured was to be turned over to the tribe's women. It seems the were more capable of exquisite torture than the warriors who captured the poor soul. Perhaps that was the "psy ops" of the time.

In the current context, a male from a highly male dominant society, as exists in the mid-east, is probably not at all prepared to deal with sexual humiliation dished out by a diminutive female. Offensive as the practice appears, one can just imagine young soldiers discovering that it is effective and using it to extract more information from their prisoners, or to quell unrest in the prison. More senior members of the chain of command would, or should, have realized that the ends do not justify the means.

[Cogadh na Sith]

During the American Indian wars of the 19th century, one of the most feared outcomes of being captured was to be turned over to the tribe's women. It seems the were more capable of exquisite torture than the warriors who captured the poor soul. Perhaps that was the "psy ops" of the time.

That's why it was better to fight to the death than be captured.

Do we really want to provide our enemies a motive to fight to the death rather than surrender?

Do you see how dumb that is?

[genefromjersey]

Sorry,folks,but the shenanigans pulled at Abu Ghrai were "beyond the beyond"... for American troops .

The troops doing this crap knew they were way over the line,but they gloried in it-and the chain of command looked thether way.

I could wish this particular genie had never gotten out of the lamp-but it did,and it is likely to cause the deaths of a LOT of good troops in the not-too-distant future.

The Ba'athist fedayeen,the Ansar al-Islam crew,and the Iranian Republican Guardsmen already in the country have been trying to light the fires of a wide-spread guerrilla war. We've handed them what amounts to gasoline truck and a blowtorch: photographic proof,media saturation,and highly publicized legislative furore.I read today we are going to make things even worse by conducting public court martials.

There is no way this will end well,and, if President Bush has the brains God gave a pissant,he will tell the Republican National Convention to withdraw his name from candidacy,because the "buck" does stop there - whether he knew about the situation or not.

[TheCrusader]

"My reaction is, So what?"

I agree with you, there was no real torture going on, nor were there any of what the media and liberal Senators keep referring to as "atrocities".

But I'm not surprised by these bogus accusations and liberal distortions anymore. Look what they did to poor Colonel West who fired a shot several feet AWAY FROM an Iraqi POW to get info from him. I expect no honesty from liberal Demo-rats or from the media anymore. They have obviously declared war on truth and honesty and are not about to retreat. I just try to keep in mind that the truth always wins out in the end. It's the only solace one can take in this insane world of lies and deceptions that we live in today.

Just as an aside, is there anyone else out there who understands the full ramifications of this traitorous, cutthroat attack on our military by the liberals? Namely, the fact that the Iraqi terrorists and thugs will no longer fear for their safety when captured, and they will not talk to our interrigators. They will know that any threats will not be carried out against them, and that our MPs will be behaving like Boy Scouts for fear of being court martialed. This whole bogus "expose" had greatly harmed our war effort.

[True Grit]

A little item we have not heard much about is that these prisoners were ones running rape rooms, cutting out tongues, conducting executions and throwing people off buildings. Does not excuse it but certainly not as vile as liberals want it to appear.

[elJim]

"Article 13 of the Third Geneva Convention
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subject to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind, which are not justified by the medical, dental, or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisals against prisoners of war are prohibited."

[ApplegateRanch]

The reason civilized countries instituted the rules of war was that when one side ignores them, they invite this kind of chaos

The Rules of War were instituted by civilized countries to try to keep wars between civilized countries civilized. They do not and can not, work against the Atillas, Genghises, Al Huseins, Tojos, Hitlers, Osamas, and Yasins of the world. "

Damascus; no prisoners!"

[Old fashioned]

I don't see much, if any, difference between the defenders of these atrocities on this thread and the perpetrators themselves.

[Dick Vomer]

thanks

[lilylangtree]

I'm not shocked or disgusted or appalled. In fact I cheer the coalition forces each day. The images of 4 civilians murdered and their bodies hung over a bridge by Iraqis are all too recent. How about what occurred to Jessica Lynch and her squad? How about those islamic palis about 2-3 years ago beating two Israeli soldiers to death who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then they hung their bloodied bodies out the window with one of their killers in the window showing off his bloody hands while crowd below cheered. No, I'm not shocked at all. I praise the coalition forces and ask "Why are these murdering creeps still alive?"

[joesnuffy]

You cannot possibly humiliate these fedahyeen war criminals enough...

The DOD and the "civilian contractors" not only knew of this...but this is official policy
and its a good one...imo

The crime here is....hanging out the youngsters to dry ...while the brass takes a powder

as usual....

imo

[Williams]

Just think, John Kerry and his ilk may get to cause the death and imprisonment of millions of Iraqis, just as they did in Vietnam. All the talk about "America has no stomach for war, will run once it suffers casualties, etc." IS about people like John Kerry. They sure aren't talking about George Bush.

[TheCrusader]

"I don't see much, if any, difference between the defenders of these atrocities on this thread and the perpetrators themselves"

And I see the word "atrocity" has been conveniently broadened by so many liberals, pacifists and others since these photos were released.

To see what the term "atrocity" really means, go find some photos of the Nazi Concentration camps, or view the photos of the four Americans hanging upside down by one leg from a bridge, after having been murdered and burnt to a black, crispy charcoal state by their Iraqi captors. Or view the photos of Iraqi thugs standing over dead American POWs who have their limbs torn off and their pants down. Or perhaps ask Jessica Lynch what it felt like to get raped and left to die on a stinking cott after getting her legs broken, her spine damaged and her arm broken in an ambush. Ask her how she feels about the death of her four comrades who were SHOT by Iraqis after their capture.

THEN GET BACK TO ME WITH YOUR MORE REALISTIC DEFINITION OF THE WORD "ATROCITY".

[cardinal4]

I dont care either. This is war. It is amazing to me that America is outraged about putting womens underwear on prisoners heads, but isnt about the four contractors who were dragged from their vehicles, mutilated, burned and then dragged through the streets. I am SO SICK of people being worried about offending arabs and muslims. Islam sucks and so do 99% of muslims. Go ahead and flame me, I dont care. America's fascination with the humane treatment of people who made careers out raping children for political purposes, is downright pathetic. I hope every male prisoner in Abu Grahib is wearing Hanes for Her on their heads. I wish everyone was guarded by a woman, who put her cigarettes out on a Koran, while wearing Daisy Dukes, a t-shirt and an assault rifle.

American concern for humane treatment of Saddam Fedeyeen and child rapers. Sheesh. Kerry has already won.

[cardinal4]

I don't see much, if any, difference between the defenders of these atrocities on this thread and the perpetrators themselves.

Self righteousness should be one of the deadly sins..