Californians Say Teach Scientific Evidence Both For and Against Darwinian Evolution, Show New Polls

Discovery Institute ^ | 5/3/04 | Staff: Discovery Institute

[Right Wing Professor]

Chuck earned a master's degree in engineering at UCLA, supplementing previous graduate work in applied mathematics, advanced statistics and information sciences.

It is highly unlikely that this graduate work included statistical mechanics; they teach stat. mech. in Chemistry and Physics programs, not in math. or stats..

[Elsie]

 Find me a single OT manuscript dated to the 5th century BC.

 

Oh no you don't!  I'm not the one who made THIS assertion:

 

It's a very late transcription of a much older oral tradition, by an unsophisticated and relatively primitive middle-eastern tribe.

 

Does THIS sound familiar?

"Just because we've not FOUND it yet, doesn't mean it isn't there."

 

 

You've called THESE verses, lies:

 

Exodus 17:14
   Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."

 

Exodus 24:12

  The LORD said to Moses, "Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written for their instruction."

 

Exodus 34:1

  The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

 

Exodus 34:27-28
 27.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
 28.  Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments.

 

Deuteronomy 6:9
   Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

 

Deuteronomy 10:2-4
 2.  I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. Then you are to put them in the chest."
 3.  So I made the ark out of acacia wood and chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hands.
 4.  The LORD wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me.

 

Deuteronomy 17:18
   When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites.

 

Deuteronomy 27:2-3
 2.  When you have crossed the Jordan into the land the LORD your God is giving you, set up some large stones and coat them with plaster.
 3.  Write on them all the words of this law when you have crossed over to enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD, the God of your fathers, promised you.

 

Deuteronomy 27:7-8

And you shall write very clearly all the words of this law on these stones you have set up."

 

Deuteronomy 28:58-59
 58.  If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name--the LORD your God--
 59.  the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses.

 

Deuteronomy 29:20-21

 20.  The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.
 21.  The LORD will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26

 24.  After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end,
 25.  he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD:
 26.  "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

 

Joshua 8:30-31
 30.  Then Joshua built on Mount Ebal an altar to the LORD, the God of Israel,
 31.  as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the Israelites. He built it according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses--an altar of uncut stones, on which no iron tool had been used. On it they offered to the LORD burnt offerings and sacrificed fellowship offerings.

 

Joshua 8:32
   There, in the presence of the Israelites, Joshua copied on stones the law of Moses, which he had written.

 

Joshua 23:6

 "Be very strong; be careful to obey all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left.

 

1 Kings 2:2-4
 2.  "I am about to go the way of all the earth," he said. "So be strong, show yourself a man,
 3.  and observe what the LORD your God requires: Walk in his ways, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and requirements, as written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go,
 4.  and that the LORD may keep his promise to me: `If your descendants watch how they live, and if they walk faithfully before me with all their heart and soul, you will never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.'

 

2 Kings 14:6
   Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."
 

2 Chronicles 23:18
   Then Jehoiada placed the oversight of the temple of the LORD in the hands of the priests, who were Levites, to whom David had made assignments in the temple, to present the burnt offerings of the LORD as written in the Law of Moses, with rejoicing and singing, as David had ordered.

 

Ezra 3:2

 Then Jeshua son of Jozadak and his fellow priests and Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel and his associates began to build the altar of the God of Israel to sacrifice burnt offerings on it, in accordance with what is written in the Law of Moses the man of God.

 

Ezra 6:18

  And they installed the priests in their divisions and the Levites in their groups for the service of God at Jerusalem, according to what is written in the Book of Moses.
 

Nehemiah 8:14-15
 14.  They found written in the Law, which the LORD had commanded through Moses, that the Israelites were to live in booths during the feast of the seventh month
 15.  and that they should proclaim this word and spread it throughout their towns and in Jerusalem: "Go out into the hill country and bring back branches from olive and wild olive trees, and from myrtles, palms and shade trees, to make booths"--as it is written.
 

Nehemiah 13:1-2
 1.  On that day the Book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people and there it was found written that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever be admitted into the assembly of God,
 2.  because they had not met the Israelites with food and water but had hired Balaam to call a curse down on them. (Our God, however, turned the curse into a blessing.)

 

Daniel 9:11
   All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.   "Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you.

 

Daniel 9:13
   Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth.

 

 

 

...an unsophisticated and relatively primitive middle-eastern tribe?

 

I think not!

[orionblamblam]

> frothing at the mouth evolutionist intellectual... everyone that lived before you were born is an idiot.

Wow. What an astonishingly lame debating tactic. Is that the best you've got? No wonder you abandoned reason for madness, just to be happy.

> Even Einstein believed intently in the Creator, and he was way smarter than anyone currently alive.

Well, now. Interesting you should mention that...
"Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning."
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."
"There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair."
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."
"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
"If this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgement on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?"

Huh. Wonder whose quotes THOSE are?

[PatrickHenry]

Even Einstein believed intently in the Creator, and he was way smarter than anyone currently alive.

Not true. And upon learning what Einstein believed, will you change your mind and follow his opinion? After all, you say that "he was way smarter than anyone currently alive."

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behavior on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress.

From two different Einstein documents found here: Some of Einstein's Writings on Science and Religion

Right, everyone that lived before you were born is an idiot [to believe "an intellectual obscenity like Creationism"]. But you have all the answers for the rest of us stupid morons. You must be a lot of fun at cocktail parties.

Before a discovery is made, everyone is ignorant of what is not yet known. No shame in that. But once a thing is discovered, and widly taught, then it becomes reasonable to criticize those who, having been exposed to the information, refuse to deal with it. For example, we are forgiving of primitive tribesmen from millennia past who may have thought the world is flat. We don't regard them as idiots. Today, however, it is quite correct to regard a flat-earther as an idiot.

[orionblamblam]

> ...an unsophisticated and relatively primitive middle-eastern tribe?

The ability to write is some five or so thousand years old, and is not the marker of an advanced culture. Especially when one considers that the Israelites were surrounds by much higher civilizations, such as the Egyptians, Babylonians and Phoenecians.

[PatrickHenry]

It seems we were both working on the same thing.

[microgood]

Not true. And upon learning what Einstein believed, will you change your mind and follow his opinion? After all, you say that "he was way smarter than anyone currently alive."

This contradicts some other statements he made (related to quantum mechanics) but I do not base my belief on what Einstein believed. I just do not see any other viable alternative since I believe both abiogenesis and macro-evolution are highly speculative (and never observed) hypotheses and certainly aren't even in the slightest league with our observable knowledge that the earth is round but closer to the realm of the global warming junkscience we hear of all the time. And them global warming folks claim their stuff is absolute fact too, even though its based on a lack of data (which macro-evolution suffers from as well) and bogus computer models.

[Right Wing Professor]

None of this proves anything, since the sources for most of your verses have an earliest date A.D., not BC. I can say that in 1913 I dated Mata Hari; that does nothing to prove I was alive in 1913. I would go so far as to call it lies, but as a society evolves it changes its traditions to accommodate the present reality. So once the materials started to be written down, it is logical that they referred to earlier accounts as written accounts.

You're right; just because we haven't found them yet, doesn't mean they don't exist, but it is surely worrying that, given the other very ancient written textual material we have, and the massive archaeological efforts that have been devoted to the holy land, we don't have much earlier biblical texts. We have Egyptian papyrus with writing from 2400 BC. Why nothing written in Hebrew until more than two millenia later?

[microgood]

No wonder you abandoned reason for madness, just to be happy.

I have never abandoned reason. It is just one part of me. And I feel no need to believe highly speculative theories like macro-evolution or abiogenesis or global warming until they have something other than sheer speculation to back them up.

[Right Wing Professor]

I would go so far as to call it lies,

That should be 'I would not go so far....'

One other point: by the 4th century BC, the Greeks had founded most of modern mathemetics, philosophy, the basic forms of literature, etc. The Israelites had invented a moral law, and not much else. And much of their law has by now been abandoned by all but the most orthodox Jews - dietary practices, ritual bathing, prohibitions on cloth from mixed sources, etc.. So I think it's reasonable to call them 'rather unsophisticated'.

[PatrickHenry]

This contradicts some other statements he made (related to quantum mechanics) but I do not base my belief on what Einstein believed.

Then why did you cite him as "authority"? Besides, his statement on quantum mechanics ("God doesn't play dice") was a figure of speech. Nothing more. I suppose creationist websites use that quote out of context, which is their standard method of misinformation, but no one familar with Einstein's work and writings would make such a mistake.

I just do not see any other viable alternative since I believe both abiogenesis and macro-evolution are highly speculative (and never observed) hypotheses ...

No one is discussing abiogenesis. The origin of life is irrelevant to the theory of evolution. What you term "macro-evolution" is a rational interpretation of the available evidence. There is nothing to contradict it, and it is consistent with geology and with the fossil record. Other than invoking a miracle, which is most definitely "speculative (and never observed)" to use your words, there is no other rational explanation for the evidence.

... and certainly aren't even in the slightest league with our observable knowledge that the earth is round but closer to the realm of the global warming junkscience we hear of all the time. And them global warming folks claim their stuff is absolute fact too, even though its based on a lack of data (which macro-evolution suffers from as well) and bogus computer models.

No one here is defending junk science. It's a bogus debate tactic to raise that stuff as an objection to evolution. If you can contradict evolution with evidence, please do so. If you have another rational explanation for the existing evidence, please let us know what it is.

[Elsie]

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

 

He appears to believe in a 'creator', but not One who would intervene in the affairs of Men.

[Elsie]

an unsophisticated and relatively primitive middle-eastern tribe

Neither of these has been shown..........

[orionblamblam]

> Neither of these has been shown..........

They were a wandering sheep-herding tribe. This disallows great social complexity. Their neighbors were considerably more advanced in most ways than them.

[orionblamblam]

> I have never abandoned reason.

The evidence begs to differ.

[orionblamblam]

> He appears to believe in a 'creator'...

Being dead, it's unlikely that he believes much of anything at this point. However: "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic."

That's reasonably clear.

[orionblamblam]

Yup. While statements of opinion can be taken or ignored, factually incorrect declarations should be refuted. Every wacky fringe group under the sun loves to not only quote-mine the likes of Einstein, they will often enough simply make stuff up (Darwin's death-bed conversion hoax, for one).

If people heard how many times I invoke God and Jesus in a day (usually right after dropping something, stubbing a toe, running into bureauocracy, whatever), they'd think I was a Fundamentalist. But... simple sound bites can be quite deceptive.

[microgood]

What you term "macro-evolution" is a rational interpretation of the available evidence. There is nothing to contradict it, and it is consistent with geology and with the fossil record. Other than invoking a miracle, which is most definitely "speculative (and never observed)" to use your words, there is no other rational explanation for the evidence.

I would go along with that. But that does not mean it is true, but that is the best we have right now. And I would agree that macro-evolution takes a more scientific approach than global warming, but it still is not near as solid as F = ma.

[bondserv]

Thanks RWP.

I had meant to type in (emphasized text added), but of course got sidetracked and then just cut and pasted (emphasis added) from the prior quote.

Thanks for the references.

[bondserv]

You are not Aric. Evil twins maybe, but his posting style is unmistakable. I kind of like having him back, for the entertainment value.