School Administrators back programs about smoking, drinking at students' homes

Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel ^ | May 4, 2004 | Scott Williams

[Chummy]

Parents upset by school talks about family

Administrators back programs about smoking, drinking at home

By SCOTT WILLIAMS

Muskego - It started out as typical small talk with her 8-year-old son. But it left Michelle Kagan feeling invaded.

Asked what he did in school that day, her third-grader reported that he met with other students to talk about whether his parents drink too much.

Her son was part of a counseling program known as Concerned Others that is intended to help children deal with worrisome family issues. But Kagan and other parents say the program goes too far with group sessions permitting children to discuss smoking or drinking habits they witness at home.

"I don't need my personal life all over the school," said Kagan. "They were asking the kids a lot of questions that belong at home."

School officials and others who defend the program say children should feel free to discuss any personal issue that is interfering with their education - even without a parent's permission, if necessary.

"I think parents would understand," said Susan Michel, a counselor who organizes Concerned Others groups at Thomas Jefferson Middle School in Port Washington. "Kids are worried about things. They have to tell somebody."

But other counseling and social-work professionals question organizing children into groups and probing into sensitive areas of their family lives.

Kathryn Franke, a family advocate who has discussed the issue with angry Muskego parents, said the Concerned Others sessions could traumatize kids by exposing them to problems in other families.

Franke described one child who had nightmares after hearing about a schoolmate's troubles at home.

"I just can't imagine that schools should be digging into family business," said Franke, who is with a non-profit family advocacy organization called Wisconsin Families Ties. "It just seems like a witch-hunt."

Parents want notification For some parents, the biggest objection to Concerned Others is that the counseling can take place without their permission.

In Muskego and Port Washington, school officials send home letters at the start of each academic year outlining assorted counseling services and inviting parents to opt out if they do not want their children involved. The letters refer to Concerned Others without specifically indicating that children are allowed to discuss their parents' conduct in front of others.

Heidi Flemmer, another Muskego parent, learned from other parents at school recently that her 9-year-old son participated in a group this school year and was questioned about his family.

It appears that school administrators "were trying to find something that wasn't there," Flemmer said, adding, "I sure as hell didn't grant them permission to twenty-question my son about whether I smoke or whether I drink."

The principal of the Muskego school where the program is offered said it is about education - not intrusion.

Susan Larkin, principal of Mill Valley Elementary School, said counselors first show a cartoon about substance abuse to all third- and fourth-grade classes, then ask students if they want to join an extracurricular group to discuss the subject further. The sessions typically involve six to 10 kids who meet with a counselor as a group once a week during lunch periods.

The only time students are questioned about family life, Larkin said, is when they are being screened one-on-one as possible participants.

She also said the children are encouraged - but not required - to tell their parents what is discussed in Concerned Others. Otherwise, students are urged not to divulge another child's personal problems to outsiders, and with that understanding the groups are permitted to have freewheeling discussions.

"Sometimes the kids start sharing more than others," she said. "And the others can listen. That's part of the teachable moment."

New permission slips Because of one parent's complaints about being uninformed, Larkin said, she is considering developing a new permission slip for next year, explicitly seeking parental approval for Concerned Others.

Parent leaders in Muskego and Port Washington said they support school efforts to help kids with family problems.

Mark Karrels, president of the Jaguar Parents Group at Thomas Jefferson, said the group counseling is a good way for parents to find out what families are troubled by substance abuse so parents can keep their kids away from those homes.

Getting it all out in the open, Karrels said, could cut down on unwanted gossiping around school.

"Parents need to remember that kids talk," he said. "It might even be a better way of kids talking, in a group."

Robert Rammer, assistant superintendent of the Muskego-Norway School District, defended the Concerned Others program, saying it is intended to help students concentrate on education by teaching them to manage personal problems.

Rammer said it is not an attempt to turn school employees into social workers.

"This isn't treatment or therapy - this is information," he said. "We have enough, trying to teach reading and writing and arithmetic, without being the social place."

From the May 5, 2004 editions of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

[Hodar]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

We have cases where teachers suspected child abuse, neglect or cases in which the child is considered 'at risk'. Teachers are crucified for doing nothing if something happens, now they are being accused of being "Nazi's" for attempting to ascertain whether a student is in a situation that warrents concern.

[Adder]

"This isn't treatment or therapy - this is information," he said. "We have enough, trying to teach reading and writing and arithmetic, without being the social place."

Then spend the time teaching. This isn't about education at all and were I a parent involved, I'd say so very loudly.

Sounds a lot like the Chinese re-education committee meetings...

[tdadams]

[Chummy]

"...Teachers are crucified for doing nothing if something happens, now they are being accused of being 'Nazi's' for attempting to ascertain whether a student is in a situation that warrents concern...."

This is prying into the families, plain and simple, and has no place in the schools. A young student has no base from which to determine if his or her parents may "smoke or drink too much".

This is just more of the "it takes a village" lunacy.

[E Rocc]

"Parents need to remember that kids talk," he said. "It might even be a better way of kids talking, in a group."

Sure, where Big Brother can take notes. This was the obvious next step after the "D.A.R.E. Box" of course.

-Eric

[E Rocc]

"This isn't treatment or therapy - this is information,"

They're using these words for a specific reason. It's against federal law for schools to administer anything that can be considered psychological treatment or therapy without the affirmative consent of the parents ("implied consent" is not allowed). Even national "DARE" admits they fall under the requirements of this law, though local programs and schools often ignore it.

-Eric

[tdadams]

Mark Karrels, president of the Jaguar Parents Group at Thomas Jefferson, said the group counseling is a good way for parents to find out what families are troubled by substance abuse so parents can keep their kids away from those homes.

Getting it all out in the open, Karrels said, could cut down on unwanted gossiping around school.

Sounds to me like he just contradicted himself from one sentence to the next.

"Hey Jean, did you hear that the Smiths are getting divorced? His dad's an alcoholic and has been having an affair... Yeah, Billy told me that's what Timmy said in school counseling."

[freeeee]

Getting it all out in the open, Karrels said, could cut down on unwanted gossiping around school.

And jumping in a lake will cut down on getting wet.

[EGPWS]

"We have enough, trying to teach reading and writing and arithmetic, without being the social place."

Finally at the end of the article the truth comes out!

[CaptRon]

To these folks, the world is just on big encounter group. All we have to do is sit down and bare our souls to complete strangers and the whole world will be a perfect place.

[ladylib]

"This isn't treatment or therapy - this is information," he said. "We have enough, trying to teach reading and writing and arithmetic, without being the social place."

The "information" probably winds up at the county social services department.

I guess a parent could tell his child not to participate and send a registered letter to the school (because unregistered letters can become "misplaced") telling the school nicely to butt out.

[Gabz]

But Kagan and other parents say the program goes too far with group sessions permitting children to discuss smoking or drinking habits they witness at home.

"I don't need my personal life all over the school," said Kagan. "They were asking the kids a lot of questions that belong at home."

I agree with her. I am an adult and if I choose to drink or smoke legal products it is none of anyone's business but MINE.

[freeeee]

Hmmmm... where oh where have I heard of the state using children as snitches?

Pavlik Morozov

I swear I have a belly laugh anytime I hear anyone call this a free country.

[Gabz]

I understand your point, but a parent having a beer with dinner or smoking cigarettes is not a situation that warrants concern and is none of anyone else's business.

It's a different story if the child comes to school with burns or bruises on them.

[Hodar]

No arguement, but exactly HOW is a teacher supposed to determine whether Mom and Dad have 1 beer (and a cigarette) with dinner; or split a case of beer and a kilo of pot, totally bypassing dinner; without asking?

If a teacher can mind-read, and choses teaching as a profession instead of Poker; they are obviously in the wrong profession.

[Chummy]

..in an unrelated (?) article in the Wisconsin press today, Wisconsin Gov Jim Doyle (D) is flouting his new "KidsFirst" proposal, and refers to "its kids" and "our kids" when speaking about the proposed Big-G Government program.

These aren't YOUR kids, Gov. These aren't the STATE's kids.

They are children of free citizens and families, and are the responsibility of those parents and families.

[american spirit]

That's exactly why I pulled my kids out of DARE immediately after I read their workbook. Nowhere and I mean nowhere did that workbook suggest that kids discuss any concerns or problems about drugs with their parent.....it suggested teachers, counselors, DARE officers, etc.....not the parents. Of course, some of the dimbulb parents in my daughters class thought I was the dumb one for pulling her out.

[Chummy]

"No arguement, but exactly HOW is a teacher supposed to determine whether Mom and Dad have 1 beer (and a cigarette) with dinner; or split a case of beer and a kilo of pot, totally bypassing dinner; without asking?..."

Unless there are signs of difficulties, which a professional should be trained to recognize, why would a teacher make this a concern?

The article depicts a scenario in which a group of young students is simply assembled and grilled to reveal what they -- in their limited experience and judgment -- are observing in their families' homes.

[freeeee]

I've noticed that trend for some time now...

"OUR children...", Many FReepers even use the term.

"