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To: LindaSOG; bentfeather; Radix; 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub; Kathy in Alaska; Poohbah; hchutch; ...
Well, Canteen FRiends, I'm going to surprise you all here.

I, and every Sailor I've talked to over tha past days since this story broke, are absolutely DISGUSTED by the conduct of those yahoos that were supposed to guard those prisoners. It has shamed us all, and has brought great disgrace upon those of us who wear our uniforms with pride, and attempt at all times to carry ourselves with dignity.

I does not matter WHAT Saddam's toadies did before, or what the enemy does to us. You do NOT justify vile behavior in our troops by pointing to that of others. WE are the ones who are SUPPOSED to be different...the honorable ones, the strong who nonetheless use our strength to protect.

You all know me as a STRONG supporter of the Terror War, and those who continue to fight it. I know the same about you. Please listen to me on this. NO GOOD comes from trying to excuse or explain away what these vermin did. The damage they have done to our morale and standing with the American people is incalculable. When someone in a uniform does something rotten, then we ALL are tarred with that brush.

Another point: THIS WAS TORTURE. Some of the exact same things were done TO ME when I attended the Navy's Survival, Escape, Resistance, and Evasion scool, where we were taught through VERY rough experience that torture can be both MENTAL and PHYSICAL. Both are equally damaging and brutal. All the more so here, as there was absolutely no point to it, other than some yahoos getting their jollies.

These prisoners had no time-critical intel to impart. There weren't even any reports suggesting that they were being unruly. If they were carrying important intel, they would have been interrogated with drugs, far from cameras or laughing jerks in some perverse peanut gallery. If unruly, they would have been isolated. This was nothing more than some brutal, vicious REMFs getting their rocks off, while their superiors looked the other way. Christ, their top sarge was a prison guard in civilian life! He knew fully well that what they did was wrong.

You can say that the media is blowing this way out of proportion. So what? That's what they do, and it is only all the more reason that these jerks were stupid...they gave the Leftist media exactly what it wanted. Like it or not, the press has been on a hunt for another Me Lai since the start of the war. How stupid do you have to be then to do this, take pictures of it, or to ignore it if you are in command? Now the Left has what they want, and those idiots gave it to them on a silver platter.

Fraternity pranks? I was in a fraternity, and no such pranks were EVER played on ANY person in it. If they had been, I would have quit on the spot. Those prisoners, however, could not, nor could they go to a college administration with complaints about abuse, which can happen to ANY fraternity that doesn't watch its ass.

Anyone who thinks that this "wasn't so bad" is invited to spend two weeks in SERE school, and tell me again at that time.

The bottom line here is that anyone who puts on a uniform of the United States Armed Forces has a charge to keep. We are ALL taught about the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ regarding not only our own conduct if taken prisoner, but the treatment of others. We are also charged with conducting ourselves at all times in a dignified, honorable manner, and to not bring disgrace upon our Brothers or our Country. The morons who did these acts failed, in every respec, as did their commanders.

Yes, our enemies often act like savages. No, they do not recognize Geneva. However, as Americans, we are held to a much higher standard, both by the world AND the Americans we protect, as we should be. How many Americans now will look at EVERY returning Soldier as some ticking time bomb? How many will wonder, just a bit...

You guys have been my FRiends now for over three years. I've shared a great deal with you, and I hope I've earned your trust. If I have at all, please, trust me on this: Keep supporting the troops as you do. But DO NOT assume that those fools involved in this disgrace are worthy of that same support or respect that you shower us (thankfully) with. To condemn acts of barbarity is NOT to withdraw all support; it is in fact strengthening it for those who truly deserve it...those Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines who do their difficult and dangerous jobs with Honor, Courage, and Commitment, and who conduct themselves with the highest standards of decency in the defense of Liberty, as befits an American Fighting Man.

There is much sadness and shame in the ranks today. The hatred we feel for these animals is palpable for what they have done to us. We don't blame the press, or even the Liberals for this one. We blame those who DID IT, and we also realize that all of us will have to carry a portion of the shame, possibly for a long time to come.

Thak you all once again.

60 posted on 05/05/2004 5:17:14 PM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: Long Cut
There is much sadness and shame in the ranks today. The hatred we feel for these animals is palpable for what they have done to us. We don't blame the press, or even the Liberals for this one. We blame those who DID IT, and we also realize that all of us will have to carry a portion of the shame, possibly for a long time to come.

Your complete post Long Cut is well put, well said. But let me inform you and please relay this to all your fellow military comrades, there is no need for you or any of the others to be ashamed. Think of and always remember all the good that you guys and girls have done.

The last paragraph of your post is the most sensible and true statement that I have heard since this mess has been in the media. We often times missed the truth or just refuse to accept the truth because we are too busy pointing fingers.

Again thank you for your service and please pass it on to others that the American people stand behind you guys 100%. Some of us our mature enough and understanding enough to know that there are some bad apples in just about every bunch.

185 posted on 05/05/2004 10:19:43 PM PDT by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: Long Cut
BUMP

I agree with your sentiments. I have heard some on talk radio (HOSTS!) defending this by pointing to the actions of the Iraqis and saying "it wasn't that bad".

I WILL say that the American soldiers who were captured, some of whom were killed, had their pants pulled down, and shown on television (last year) were also the victims of a war crime. The only thing I will bring up is that the media has ignored any followup on that story (and yes the media did characterize it as violating the Geneva Conventions at the time). Have those Iraqis been taken into custody? What is the state of their war crimes trial?

I will also say that the media is giving this election year coverage. There was a similar event reported last year with British troops simulating oral sex with the prisoners. It did not get this level of coverage.

I do not excuse the behavior of anyone involved in these crimes (or suggest that they did not really happen). I do point out the difference in coverage by the media regarding war crimes committed against the allies in this war.

The "insurgents" are terrorists who often don't wear uniforms and strike at civilians. As you said, they don't play by the rules. We do. We cannot stoop to their level but the media needs to be accurate in describing the attrocities committed by all combatants in this war. Otherwise the public will walk away with a biased opinion.

193 posted on 05/05/2004 11:09:45 PM PDT by weegee (NO BLOOD FOR RATINGS. CNN ignored torture & murder in Saddam's Iraq to keep their Baghdad Bureau.)
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To: Long Cut; Eaker
Beautiful post!

I think the world of all of you guys and it's a shame that a few miscreants can cast such a bad light on so many who don't deserve it. (The media has been helpful in that as well.)

Stay safe and keep fighting the good fight!

196 posted on 05/05/2004 11:25:45 PM PDT by Allegra (Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, MUSHROOM!)
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To: Long Cut
We blame those who DID IT, and we also realize that all of us will have to carry a portion of the shame, possibly for a long time to come.
I've little pity or respect for those acting or those acted upon. However, your "group shame" you can keep to yourself. I've no shame as the actions were not my own. Everyone accountable for their own actions.
You're playing a very liberal game with the manure you're pushing there!
199 posted on 05/05/2004 11:57:59 PM PDT by philman_36
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To: Long Cut
Exactly. Thanks for the eloquent post.
217 posted on 05/06/2004 9:26:49 AM PDT by proudmilitarymrs (If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.)
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To: Long Cut
Bump for a great post.
222 posted on 05/06/2004 9:35:25 AM PDT by independentmind
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To: Long Cut
I appreciate your point of view, and applaud the conviction in which you maintain it. My point of view, though, is that the Geneva Convention is for wealthy nations and armchair generals; for old-style wars where battles were fought, prisoners exchanged and a few drinks had by all around. The reason we're there is not to win and make friends but to kill and destroy the enemy, to demoralize it and grind it into dust. Nope, I'm not talking about civilian (at least, not the ones who appreciate us). I'm talking about anyone who shoots at Americans, plots against us, or even sympathizes with the enemy (the cheering masses). Sadam was a bad man, and his prisons were evil because they were filled with children and political enemies. We should make our military prisons over there so vile and hated that nobody would EVER WANT TO BE PUT IN ONE. They need to get that salad-tosser from HBO over there to show them how to really do it right.
232 posted on 05/06/2004 12:26:36 PM PDT by mudblood
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