Military Commanders’ Decisions in Fallujah Overridden by Politicians (CONFIRMED)

Fox Live Broadcast / USA Today Interview ^ | 5/3/04 | Jim Michaels

[elfman2]

Freepers have been hotly debating whether politicians or military commanders made the decision to cancel the Fallujahn offensive.

Today Fox News Live’s Jon Scott (I believe) interviewed Jim Michaels (USA Today Reporter) just back from Fallujah. I transcribed the relevant portion of the interview. In summary he said that the Marines were told to stop the attack by Administrator Bremer under pressure from the Iraqi Governing Council.

MICHAELS – “No one [in the Marines] was happy with the cease fire. The American contractors were killed.

“They got the order to go in, as we know, on a big offensive. They were in the offensive for whatever, seven or eight days and boom the politicians said no, hold back, there’s too many casualties.

“The governing council, the Iraqi governing council, was really upset. They went to Mr. Bremer. Mr. Bremer in turn sort ‘a put in the order to hold back.

“While they were in this cease fire meanwhile the insurgents were in there, the insurgents were in there rearming re-supplying you know, taking advantage of of the lull in activities, so they were in a real bind here, and they really had no choice, they say, except to come up with the idea for a Fallujah Brigade.

“Otherwise these guys would still be in there and the ceasefire would still be going on, and these talks that they were having were going nowhere. The sheiks (sp?) were just kind ‘a sipping tea with coalition officials and were nowhere, It was just getting nowhere at all. “

SCOTT –“So very quickly Jim, Do the bad folks in Fallujah think that they’ve won?”

MICHAELS – “They do indeed! They’re running around the past couple of days, celebrating and saying you know that they’ve fought things to a stand still. They’re really taking a propaganda victory out of this. “

“They’re really running around saying, you know, they fought the American forces to a standstill. You know they’re pushing it for all it’s worth.”

SCOTT –“So how does that effect their overall strategy to win the hearts and minds of the the Iraqis - the fact that they’re claiming a victory in Fallujah?

MICHAELS – Well pol… It doesn’t help. And it’s one of the biggest fears that the Marines have is that a week, 10 days down the road, this things going to continue to snowball, and and these guys are going to claim victory, and it presents a BIG propaganda problem for the American forces there. It its a big risk.

"The Marines said that they had no choice, that they were in a stand off and the ceasefire whas going nowhere."

[B4Ranch]

"In Vietnam, Ho had 14 million recruits to keep replacing his losses...these guys causing the trouble do not (at least not in Iraq)."

Ask your source for more INTEL on foreign mercs coming in to help the insurgents. That'll change your thoughts.

[A Jovial Cad]

Ha, ha...my, my what a pleasant thing it is to receive a post from you. I don't know what I enjoy more--the straightforward profane descriptions of myself (*flaming assweasel*) or the subtle way you say hello (*screw you and the armchair you rode in on*). Neat stuff.

Anyway, moving right along now, I find a few small things to quibble with in your charming reply. To Wit:

*Now you had better get used to something*

NO, *you* had better get used to something: the policy regarding Fallujah is, to date, pretty much an incoherent failure. The Iraqis seem to think so--especially the cheering "insurgents" who think, not without justification, that *they've* won. The Marines seem to think so: there is much grumbling in the lower ranks filtering back home into a thousand different venues about this policy. Conservative public opinion seems to think so (I don't even really care what the liberals think)--save a few super-duper free lance secret agents "in the know" and some cranky posters nearly every conservative I've seen or read or listened to thinks this "repositioning" is just a nice way of saying "Uncle! You win, insurgents!" Now, I know you are privy to all sorts of special info that we mere mortals aren't, but we simple folk have to work with the info we have at hand.

*Before you complain about Bremer*

Never complained about the man in my life: he's irrelevant to most of this, anyway.

*It is bad enough having to turn on MSNBC and watch David Hackworth relive his Vietnam experiences and then have to come here and deal with people who should know better*

Gee, so sorry you were *forced*, I gather, to both watch MSNBC *and* come to a Free Republic thread tonight. When I see something on the TV I don't like, I usually reach for the remote. And if I see a thread at FR I don't want to participate in, I don't hit "post reply." I just move on to something else.

*You need to sit down, cool down, and let this thing play out.*

"Physician, heal thyself."

*Flattening Fallujah is not an option, and is not what we're there for*

Ummm, and you read this suggestion of mine in *what* post? [Sarcasm/]
In point of fact, this is cheap nonsense. Calling for a consistent, forceful policy is not the same thing as saying "flatten the place!" This is Demonrat logic at it's most ripe. Speaking of which, I know this website I'm sure you'd be plenty interested in....

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of it. It's all jaw-jaw and razz-matazz meant to puff up your so-called "credentials" as a guy who's *practically*, for all stated intents and purposes, right there on the front lines! It's puffery to reinforce your claim that everyone who disagrees with you should simply shut up, and move on. Go play that game with people whom are interested in being awed by your dubious claims about being "in-the-know": I'm not.
But, I would like to have one of those secret-decoder rings...

[elfman2]

" The military doesn't take orders from Mr. Bremer. "

They take orders from who tells them to cooperate with Bremer.

Marines don’t fight this way. Politicians fight this way. Now it's being reported. The world knew it anywhay, whether you accept it or not.

I really don’t have time for more of this. Good night.

[mtbopfuyn]

Fallujah = Fa-loser

[philetus]

Ping

[timydnuc]

Let's not get out of the box on this. We didn't withdraw, we are in a defensive position away from the city (if we really are, we are dealing with the leftist press and the Arab lying press on this). The idea is to get the Iraqis to fight for their own country, if they truly love it as they say they do. If they can't do it by June 30, we have to stay, and we have to know their strenghs and weaknesses right this minute. The Arab and American press are pushing this thing into a "Viet Nam" it's because they need a defeat, just like the Nam. We have a President, and a spirit that just won't quit. The enemies that we have crawl among us, and they are in league with the enemies that fight to defeat us. The Courts....worthless to the American cause. The UN, totally ineffective, and useless. Too much socialism, too much envy of the US, too much corruption of power and money, too much dastardliness. We kneel, with faith, and try to overcome this barrage of lies and murderous attacks on us. When we rise and start to fight again our enemy will be soiled in his own filth and running to the safety of a hole in the ground.

[Proud Legions]

No real sources, other than what we all have.

Not saying outsiders don't come in...just they are having dificulty getting into Fallujah in large numbers, especially with our Marines surrounding them.

Do believe they are coming into the rest of Iraq, but certainly not in the kinds of numbers that I mentioned above. By tens clearly, hundreds, maybe, thousands--probably not but I suppose possible. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions...no way.

That's all I was saying. Does not mean they are not trouble!

[mplsconservative]

Your memory does not serve you correctly.

President Bush did not declare the fighting was over in Iraq. He declared the end of major combat.

You sound appreciative that the President is no longer the best thing since 'cinnamon toast.'

Should've checked your home page, so pardon the question if it is answered there. Has a major war ever occurred during your lifetime?

You seem so....impatient.

[swarthyguy]

>>any alternative to the Baathists in the Sunni areas?

IMO, No. No alternative when to have a career you had to join the party. And I think we've given up that ghost of no Baathis.

[FreeReign]

You: -- Military Commanders’ Decisions in Fallujah Overridden by Politicians

Me: -- The military doesn't take orders from Mr. Bremer.

You: -- They take orders from who tells them to cooperate with Bremer.

Me: -- The Marines take orders from the CIC... which makes your screaming headline on this post inacurate, misleading, hyperbolic and selfserving.

Marines don’t fight this way. Politicians fight this way. Now it's being reported. The world knew it anywhay, whether you accept it or not.

The Marines fight when so ordered by the CIC who happens to be a politician. Same as it ever was.

Thanks for the ping.

[swarthyguy]

Oh stop the amateur psychoanalysis. It's a tired routine by now. Been done too often.

Anxiety? Yes, that Bubbya has skroodthepooch.

Contempt? Yes, for the politcal missteps and imcompetence and allowing Marines to die for nothing.

Lack of political understanding? That I think, is Bremer's expertise.

[A Jovial Cad]

Oh, and one other little thing, Section 31, er, ummm, I mean "section9":

*I have two sources giving me information that explains what's going on in Iraq. One is in the field, and the other is in intel (the one in the field is a Ranger, and he has been in the bush since the end of last month...)*

To the extent that this statement *is* true (and I have my doubts), then these soldiers are violating the UCMJ. They should not be giving detailed tactical info like that to *anyone* not cleared for it, and not even then unless they have a Need To Know. When I was in the service, we had this quaint concept called OPSEC-Operational Security. Granted, it wasn't during wartime. But I would think it would be even *more* imperative to observe in a combat situation.
Bottom line, your "sources"--assuming for a fraction of a second that they are genuine--are flirting with a trip to a certain government installation located in Kansas if they truly are passing on "info" to a civilian, especially one who likes to bloviate about it on an open website to make himself look special.
Do either of them (assuming they exist) know how much you like to publicly brag about the "info" they're supposedly passing on to you?

[WOSG]

I see you've shifted from your original claim of a few days ago that the Marines didn't develop the current strategy of creating the Fallujah Brigade and withdrawing to positions outside of Fallujah. I quote you... "I’m still looking for a single statement from a military commander that this pullout/repositioning on the brink of victory was "a Marine plan through and through" or something like that." You are correct. This ceasefire is a different matter entirely than the "Fallujah brigade".

[WOSG]

Fine. But this is talking about the ceasefire, not the Marine's creating the "Fallujah Brigade". Nobody has disputed that the earlier ceasefire was a political call, IIRC.

[B4Ranch]

Yes, I did a couple of tours in Nam where Johnson would declare peace talks and the VC would come back rested, better armed and with lots of ammunition they didn't have before we shut down for a week or two.

$$$$$$$$ If we hadn't shutdown during peace talks we would have finished the war by '69. The North was in big trouble but we kept giving them the opportunity to get supplies from China to keep the war going. $$$$$$$$$$

[B4Ranch]

We need to call the SeaBees back in and ask them about extending the berm they put around Fallujah. Just a polite question about doing one for the entire country.

I'm sure they would have lots volunteers 'cause they are all crazy. I'd bet within a week they would be having competitions going to see who could move the most dirt under fire while returning fire.

[WOSG]

For crying out loud, no one, but *NO ONE* here is "blinking." The call has been for the use of *more* force in Fallujah, not less.

DITTOS ON THIS... Nobody is saying it would be good to let the perps and killers walk. We want the bad guys dead. Nobody is thrilled with the options. But some of us realize that a repositioning of Marines is not a defeat, not even rating a setback, just a stalling of what could have been a rather crushing blow against insurgents (ie more a missed opportunity than anything else, now they are trying a different "opportunity" to fix the problem). "This fight is not over" is the comment from one marine commander. Hear that?

[Godfollow]

Was called by the National Republican Committee and was asked for a donation to support President Bush... I gave her an ear-full regarding the President appearing wishywashy on this Iraq mess, and our guys getting picked off like sitting ducks... I told her to send a message back to the President that a lot of us who normally would support him are getting angry about the handwringing in Iraq and that I will not be supporting him unless he demonstrates a more aggressive and winning position for our troops in Iraq. Damn you Mr. President, destroy those bastards and win this thing, or I'll be voting with my feet.

[A Jovial Cad]

First, thank-you for being civil in replying to my post.

*"This fight is not over" is the comment from one marine commander. Hear that?*

I do, indeed. But, given the pattern in Fallujah to date, I would feel much better hearing it from the Chairman of the JCS, and on national television.
Look, I--and most of the folks posting with my general position--am not clamoring for the flattening of the whole of Fallujah, or for some kind of isolationist withdraw from Iraq, or for anything of that nature in between. We *want* our efforts to succeed in Iraq; we are, for the most part, *thrilled* that Saddam is gone, and that the effort was undertaken in the first place.
But many of us simply disagree with the way this *specific* battle has been managed to date. When you talk about the "repositioning" of Marines, I say: I've heard that story before. The year was 1975, not 2004, and the city was Saigon, not Fallujah. It raises hackles and reminders of an humiliating American fiasco not easily forgotten for those of us who lived through it. Apples and Oranges to some extent? Sure. But the rhetoric is virtually the same--and there is no denying that we are "repositioning" away from Fallujah with the enemy in control of the city--and after taking precious casualties.
Anyway, you make some cogent points, but I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree to some extent about them. Regardless, I do appreciate *the way* in which you presented them, *sans* the "you're an armchair warrior!" approach that has made an all-to-frequent appearance in this thread.

[WOSG]

In Vietnam, Ho had 14 million recruits to keep replacing his losses...these guys causing the trouble do not (at least not in Iraq)."

If it makes you feel better, the news today was of several incident where we basically killed a bunch of militants.

We shouldnt over-emphasize such body counts, but it gives me warm fuzzies when our soldiers beat the tar out of the bad guys.