Posted on 04/30/2004 3:59:59 PM PDT by saquin
FALLUJAH, Iraq ---- A dozen former Iraqi generals and intelligence officers met Friday with U.S. military leaders and pledged to lead a brigade of 1,000 Iraqi soldiers to replace the Marines fortifying the city's borders.
But U.S. military officials cautioned that the arrival of the Iraqi forces in this embattled city, possibly as early as today, does not necessarily mean peace.
"They are still doing some planning on how to do a transition from U.S. forces to Iraqi security forces in Fallujah," Marine Col. John Toolan said Friday, choosing his words carefully while describing the new arrangement that other officials Friday called "delicate."
"I've been saying all along that this was all about leadership," Toolan said following a 30-minute meeting with the ex-military leaders of deposed Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "And, finally, we've got someone stepping up."
That someone is Staff Gen. Jasim Muhammed Salah, who will lead the newly formed 1st Battalion of the Fallujah Protection Brigade.
Salah said his brigade, which seemed to come out of nowhere over the course of the last week, is part of the "new Army of Iraq."
"We are very happy [to] cooperate with the Marines and Army," he said.
After shaking Salah's hand and telling him they would speak again soon, Toolan said the brief meeting was meant to confirm the Iraqis' commitment to taking over the cordon around Fallujah, which thousands of Marines shed blood to establish and fought hard to hold for nearly a month.
Toolan said he was confident in the generals and their forces, but he refused say when the troops would be in the city or when the Marines would pull back, though some troops started packing Friday.
Even while the generals talked of today's operations and reporters bantered about the sudden outbreak of peace in Fallujah, fighting continued Friday along the city's troublesome northern and western regions along the Euphrates River.
Exploding mortars, probably the same 82 mm shells that insurgents have volleyed at Marines day after day, crashed to the ground where Marine patrols have ventured in the last week.
A 15-minute firefight raged near the old bridge over the Euphrates near where four American security contractors were slain on March 31. Heavy machine guns ripped away furiously for so long that Marine gunners across the river commented that their barrels were probably melting.
And late Friday afternoon, mosques broadcast military marches advocating jihad and speakers called Fallujah the "city of heroes" for battling the Marines.
Marine leaders in the field urged their men not to let their guards down, even though it looked like they would soon be pulling back.
Toolan said the arrival of Iraqi forces does not guarantee peace.
"It still remains a concern that not all the cells operating in the city are buying into their effort," Toolan said of continued fighting Thursday afternoon and night.
He and other officials said there was still much talking to do before taking action.
According to a draft statement issued Friday by I Marine Expeditionary Force officials in Fallujah, the new Iraqi force will work with the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps and Iraqi Police to replace the Marines at checkpoints and strategic points along the cordon around Fallujah.
"The mission of the battalion will be to assist in returning peace and stability to the city of Fallujah, facilitate the flow of support, and foster the rapid reconstruction and employment of citizens inside the city," the statement read.
The arrangement was touted as a "new model of cooperation" that recognized the "security of Al Anbar (province) will ultimately be an Iraqi responsibility. This will be an important step in the transition from Coalition to Iraqi authority."
While the sudden development of an Iraqi force to take over Fallujah may have surprised some on the ground, where Marines have said for weeks they were ready and poised to crush the thousand or more insurgents dug in the city at all cost, there was a growing realization among Marines and their leaders that a victory in Fallujah would have to have an Iraqi face.
"The way I look at it, it had to happen this way," said Lt. Josh Jamison, the young leader of Fox Company's 2nd Platoon, the first infantry platoon to lose a Marine during the initial cordon on April 5 and the first to fight its way into the city from the northwest on April 6.
"We could have attacked them and killed them all ---- and, believe me, all my boys are still ready and capable of doing it," Jamison said Friday after being shown on a map the town some 10 miles from Fallujah where his 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment would soon pull back to. "And Fallujah would pretty much be in rubble. What would we have then?"
Security in Fallujah has to be something the Iraqis do for themselves, Jamison said, adding the Marines would not be too far off if the new Iraqi forces needed help.
"This is really good because we're not really going anywhere," he said. "We're still right here. So if they mess it up or if the Iraqis need us, we're more than ready to come finish the job. I think the people of Fallujah believe that now."
Other troops occupying hard-won positions in the city at first seemed to treat the news that they might be pulling out in a matter of days with some natural skepticism. Plans change every day, they say; besides, insurgents were still shooting at them.
But by Friday evening, many seemed encouraged by the news.
"I still think we should push forward," said Lance Cpl. Ayron Kull, 20, of Niles, Mich., who was just coming off a shift monitoring the late-afternoon firefight in the city Friday.
"But maybe it's good. Let's give the Iraqis a chance. Maybe they can do it and we won't have to come back here and start all over again."
The Republican Guards were the only Iraqi military units worthy of the name. The rest were conscript cannon fodder.
For the ideological equivalent of the SS, you would have to go to the Fedayeen Saddam (Saddam's "Men of Sacrifice").
You have posted nothing but an incoherent and drooling non sequitur.
Tell us, exactly, how this particular Iraqi general, chosen for this particular mission by the U.S. Marine commander in the combat theater is equivalent to the "SS".
Tell us.
That just about sums up your whole defeatist attitude. In your world, I have no doubt that statement is true.
This is not true. Patton left a few of the civil employees in certain key civilian posts such as food distribution and transportation who had been members of the Nazi party. Their was no German military left. They where either dead, in custody, on the run, in prison camps, or disbanded and unarmed. The last fighting done in Berlin was by ten and twelve year Hitler youth boys.
The only armed authority where the U. S. Military and it's Allies and the Russian military in their sector. See "General Patton A Soldiers Life", by Stanley P. Hirshson pg.664-669.
As I understand it, the Allgemeine-SS (General SS) served a politicial and administrative role, the SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS Deaths Head Organization) was in control of the prison system and the Waffen-SS (Armed SS) were the front-line combat units.
The Fedayeen Saddam were not created to serve a political or administrative role. They were created as an ideologically fanatic armed paramilitary force.
During the drive to Baghdad, it was Fedayeen Saddam and not the Republican Guard who put up stiff armed resistance to the advance of coalition forces.
As a frontline military force, the Iraqi Republican Guard did not measure up to non-SS Wehrmacht units.
The equivalencies I would use are the following:
The Fedayeen Saddam were equivalent to the Waffen SS, the Republican Guards were equivalent to Wehrmacht units without much fight in them and the regular Iraqi Army units were equivalent to the Volkssturm.
In any event I am sure we can go back and forth about what was and was not similar regarding Adolf Hitler's use of police and military forces and Hussein's use of police and military forces. The key point I was trying to make is that the Republican Guard is composed of people who directly participated in atrocities that have occurred over the past several decades. As a result, when discussing the bona fides of high-ranking officers in the Republican Guard, I believe it would be prudent to take a guilty until proven innocent approach with respect to these fellows.
In any event I am sure we can go back and forth about what was and was not similar regarding Adolf Hitler's use of police and military forces and Hussein's use of police and military forces. The key point I was trying to make is that the Republican Guard is composed of people who directly participated in atrocities that have occurred over the past several decades. As a result, when discussing the bona fides of high-ranking officers in the Republican Guard, I believe it would be prudent to take a guilty until proven innocent approach with respect to these fellows.
You know, I really can't fault your logic.
I guess that the problem comes in regards to what the sections of the Iraqi armed forces were meant to do when they were created and what they actually did when the balloon went up. They are two different things. :-)
As Stalin found out after his purge of military officers, ideological fanaticism does not translate into military competence.
It is my belief that the Republican Guard was militarily competent but ideologically soft. (Militarily competent enough to know that engaging the U.S. was suicidal and ideologically soft enough to know that Saddam was not worth dying for.)
It is my belief that the Fedayeen Saddam were ideologically fanatic but militarily incompetent. (Ideological enough to know that they were willing to die for Saddam but militarily incompetent enough to think that charging an Abrams with an RPG would actually accomplish something.)
From what I have read, it seems that this particular Iraqi General was in the "Militarily Competent - Ideologically Soft" category.
I am sure that, over the past year, this particular Iraqi General has been gone over with a fine toothed comb by U.S. authorities.
After World War II, many "Militarily Competent - Ideologically Soft" Germans made fine additions to West Germany's armed forces and to NATO.
For example:
Erwin Rommel, another "Militarily Competent - Ideologically Soft" World War II German would also have made a fine NATO commander if he had survived the war.
Disclaimer: I acknowledge that comparing World War II German military competence and Iraqi military competence is analogous to comparing apples and lemons. However, when we only have lemons to work with, we have to make lemonade and not apple pie.
And -- Jefferson, through various means which included bombardments of Tripoli (1803-04) and subsequent actions against the "Barbary Pirates" ended our payment of "tribute" by 1815..
Europeans continued to pay until about 1830....
Even then, the Muslims along the coast -- considered kidnapping and ransoms as "business"...
I believe the time has arrived where the Islmaists need to be "disciplined" to behave themselves.....
Semper Fi
I would have attempted to explain; however, your quoted comment convinced me you'd be too stupid to grasp the point...
Semper Fi
Just like trying to debate a lefty. Using insultants rather than sound argument.
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