[WoofDog123]

"As evidence he cites genetic data showing the Celts are more closely related to the Basque people of south west France and the Celts of Brittany and Spain, while the English are closer to the Germans descended from the Anglo Saxons."

The only surprise here is that the basque are genetically related to the celts. The rest of this stuff is easily deduced from the last couple of thousand years of history.

The west vs east proposal doesn't make clear where in the east of britain they are surprised to find germanic genes, though what I have read in other articles says that celtic genes are more common in England itself than was previously expected. From northumbria south was heavily settled by A-S tribes, danes, etc., from the 5th century onward. The pictish areas of scotland are not mentioned. What about any of this (besides basque-celtic genetic link) is a surprise at all? Obviously the celts would be genetically related to each other (brittany received its current celts from wales and cornwall celts running from anglo-saxons, etc).

What part of any of this is a surprise given the linguo-ethnic map of the roman empire in circa 400, and the known subsequent migrations?

[Benrand]

If 't aina Sco'ish, IT'S CRAP!

[muawiyah]

Implicit is the idea that the different ethnic or nationality groups in UK maintain separate breeding circles.

This would tend to support the contention of each side of the divide that the other's womenfolk are either elephants or shrews.

[Zuben Elgenubi]

I dinna ken Basque (ancestry from Inverness on my Dad's side).

[risk]

celtic anthropology ping

[billorites]

[Tax-chick]

Tomorrow ...

[Eala]

Some years ago the goodwife and I undertook our first tour of Scotland, following business in the north of England. Upon arrival in Berwick-upon-Tweed (from which my Scottish forebears sailed to America -- an unusual point of departure), she was told by a local that, despite Berwick being in English hands for 700+ years, "We're still Scottish here!"

[TigerLikesRooster]

Ping!

[wagglebee]

I'm sort of interested in where the surrender/appeasment gene came into the mix.

[WoofDog123]

"What part of any of this is a surprise given the linguo-ethnic map of the roman empire in circa 400, and the known subsequent migrations?"

With a little more time to type now, for those who aren't already familiar with it, I will put some more info on the historical migrations which make the current ethnic picture.

The Welsh and Cornish are the ethno-linguistic remnants of the apparently dominant celtic group in southern britain at the end of the roman period. Their were extended at least up into the cumbrian mountains (the name is derived from the same name the welsh give themselves, Cymru, or the language, Cymraeg,). Cornish and Welsh were basicly identical languages with very few changes over the roughly 1300 years of geographical separation until cornish became extinct under an English language-cleansing programme. Bretons actually immigrated from western britain during the germanic invasion period. I am not sure if there is any concensus on whether the language spoken by the various tribes the romans found in their invasion 54AD(?) was a p-celtic language or not, though I assume so. The romans apparently didn't take much interest in documenting the languages of subject peoples. One such tribe, the Pritani, would become the source of the name of the island Britain (p-celtic p-->b mutation)

I don't know what the ethnic composition of western scotland was before the Irish invaded, but the language of scots gaelic, Manx (extinct, Isle of Man) and Ireland were very similar with a common root. Western Scotland saw the establishment of small Irish kingdoms, eventually merging and politically conquering the Pictish kingdom of the East of scotland about a thousand years ago.

There are virtually no remaining traces of the Pictish language aside from some placenames, but it is generally assumed to be p-celtic (like welsh, cornish, etc.) One scholar wrote a work arguing it was finno-ugric, related to the language of finland, estonia, hungary. I would think genetic studies could clear this up once and for all in the east and northeast of scotland. Maybe there have already been some.

Large-scale (west) germanic immigrationinvasion into eastern and southern britain began in the 5th century, pushing out or assimilating/enslaving the remaining romano-celtic population, with nothing but placenames to attest to the celtic language's past presence. Scandinavian immigration began in the late 9th century to the north and eastern parts of england, and added to the ethnic mix, also altering the english language in a number of ways in those areas. This language would become the dominant dialect of english.

Aside from the basque connection, I am not sure where the article is pointing out a status-quo that was older than what I have listd above.

[Domestic Church]

I think the basque and celtic languages have some overlap as well.

[LiteKeeper]

YEC INTREP - I have a book based on excellent research that traces the original inhabitants of the British Isles directly back to Japheth!

[xkaydet65]

So the English are related to Germans. Duh!!! It's called Angle"s Land, after the invasion/migration of north german Angles and Saxons into Britain in the late fifth and early sixth century. This is the source of the Legend of Arthur, who was probably a Celtic chieftain rallying the tribes after the departure of the Legions in 410 had left the Celtic Britons on their own. So complete was the Anglo Saxon triumph that some say there is not a place in England that bears a Celtic name, nor a word in English that remains from the Gaelic of the Celts. Is it so hard to believe that the descendants of these invaders would dominate the land genetically?

[blam]

Basque

(Why are the Basque so fascinating?)

[jnarcus]

For those of us who wear the tartans with pride, we knew this all along because of the differences between P Gaelic and Q Gaelic...The tales of our origins are very clear and it is always nice to see that someone other than us finally understands....

[farmfriend]

Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.
Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

[rightofrush]

THANK YOU FOR ONE OF THE MOST THOUGHT-PROVOKING ARTICLES I'VE SEEN ON FR. I di'na ken.

[U S Army EOD]

Perhaps bagpipes were invented sooner than we think, which would easily explain the split.

[Cronos]

The only surprise here is that the basque are genetically related to the celts

Not really, the Basque have been surrounded by Celtic folk for thousands of years. Its no surprise that, while they maintained their language, they interbreed with the neighbouring regions.

[Cronos]

BEsides which, the Celts moved into Europe only around 3000 BC or later, in consistance with other Indo-European migrations from Central Asia-Persia-India