An Open letter to President Bush (End run vs. Outsourcing)

Me | Me

[Toddsterpatriot]

That is why Dumping was made illegal

What is the definition of dumping? Is it black and white, or is there room for interpretation?

[Havoc]

Anytime good business is bad for a society that society has issues that need resolving.

Well if you're so close you can't see the forest for the trees, then this type of statement is to be expected. Because it's all a matter of what we define as "good business". Ya'll think you should be able to do anything you want as long as it turns a profit. I've demonstrated that has not been the case and for good reason. I've provided Three top examples of abuses that business thought was good business. Because they were evidently too close and too single minded, we the people had to jerk a knot in their collective tail. And in one instance it was the basis for a civil war. Business has demonstrated time and again the ability to put blinders on so they can only see dollar signs while they create and perpetuate attrocities against the citizenry. We've been here before too.

Through your own logic and that of others here, you legitimize hitmen and murder for hire in general. It turns a profit and after all, no business should be limited by anyone in their pursuit of profit - that's just evil. So If I can find someone that wants you dead, I'd be justified in offing you as long as I can make a profit.. that's your standard.. Anybody want this guy offed? (/sarcasm)

[Havoc]

No you don't. When you're competing in the US market your only DUTY is to do so profitably, and if that undercuts others that's their problem not yours.

Right, so if I murder you for hire, it's your problem, not mine. As long as I make a profit for my company, that's all that matters... (/sarcasm)

[stainlessbanner]

GCN - Readers respond to NMCI

[discostu]

Good business is things like sending labor to somewhere cheaper, under cutting competition who have too much fat, and expanding market share.

Sorry I don't legitimize hitmen and murder, saying I do is LYING and not appreciated. I legitimize doing business legally and thuroughly. I'm just not stupid enough to think that a business has some ethical obligation to allow competition to thrive or even exist. My standard is that if stupid taxation and regulation drives up labor costs in America so much that manufacturing can no longer be done profitably in America that's AMERICA'S fault, not the businesses moving manufacturing to somewhere cheaper. There's no murder in that, and no equivalent to murder. Stop the lies Havoc, they make you look desperate and stupid.

[discostu]

No that's breaking the law. Show where I said breaking the law is good. STOP LYING! Deal with the facts, end the lies.

[Havoc]

No, ya'll keep saying that anything done to restrict business from turning a profit is wrong. Now you can't have it both ways. Either there is a place and time to do it, or there is not. And so far not one of you has dained to admit that there is such thing as appropriate restriction and that business has historically been unable to clearly judge when that is for itself on numerous occasions. Either regulation is right and necessary or it is not. You can't have it both ways.

[discostu]

That's not what I said at all. Learn to read.

[Havoc]

My standard is that if stupid taxation and regulation drives up labor costs in America so much that manufacturing can no longer be done profitably in America that's AMERICA'S fault,

Well, so far, I haven't seen any business leave because they couldn't make a profit. They have left to make bigger profits because they can offer sub poverty wages in other countries, no benefits and they don't have to worry about such trivial things as worker rights. You know - no osha around to see that the operation is first and foremost, safe.. things like that. And the claim that they can't make a profit here belies the facts on the ground. Again, companies here from other countries competing in our society paying competative wages are having no problem earning a profit. They are under the same restrictions. They just ain't tryin to get a million out of every customer who walks in the door. And this is the same circular bs you guys keep uttering with not a leg to stand on.

Stop the lies Havoc, they make you look desperate and stupid.

Uh, you free traitor types are the ones saying ANY restriction on a business's abiltity to make a profit is wrong, robbery, evil, etc. I mean, for cryin out loud, it's practically ya'lls mantra apart from calling us robbers and thieves for expecting to keep our jobs, saying you can't make a profit here in face of facts to the contrary and trying to denigrate us as evil for trying to put a stop to the damage being done in the name of profit. Again, you can't have it both ways. If it is evil to restrict business activity then it's evil to stop hitmen. If it's not evil to restrict business, then it's ok to outlaw murder and punish hitmen. But then you've surrendered one of your hollow voodoo sticks for sake of argument. Which is it. Is murder ok, or is restricting business ok in order to stave off abuses by businessmen with no scruples.

[Gekko The Great]

Yes it is an attack on business, welcome to free market capitalism, it isn't for the weak of heart. Every business is either a lion or a gazelle and they don't usually find out which until blood is shed. It's a kill or be killed world in business, there's only so much money to go around and a business' job is to get as much of it as they can.

Ah, good. A man after my own heart. It's all about bucks, kid. The rest is...conversation. Just kill everybody else and devil take the hindmost. Ethics, morality, doing the right thing, all of those are for sissies, sentimental Judeo-Christian ethics that are outmoded in the globalist capitalist world. To hell with anything and anyone who gets in the way of the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar. Right on!

No I'm arguing that the duty of a corporation is profit. And anybody that knows anything about business knows that when one company makes profit there's a good chance others are going out of business.

Right. Profit above all. No duty to country, society, or individuals. If those get in the way of making a profit, to hell with them. Profit is God to the decadent, amoral capitalist.

So when I run you out of business and have a monopoly on everything, don't dare stand in my way of abusing you and everyone else. And don't let outmoded concepts like government of the people by the people and for the people even think about standing up to my monopoly. If I want to pay my workers in script that is only redeemable at the company store where I can charge whatever price I want for basic necessities, well, tough, its none of your business. You don't like it, screw you. You can always get another job or start your own business with no money. Oops. Sorry. Can't do that. I have a monopoly, remember. And pure, unadulterated, divine, unquestionable, worshipped-at-all-costs free market capitalism tells us that this is the only way to go. No interference, nothing to impede the march toward that Utopian ideal (for me, of course, and no one else).

[Havoc]

Anytime good business is bad for a society that society has issues that need resolving. -478

When you're competing in the US market your only DUTY is to do so profitably -481

you said it, not me. And these arguments are right in line with the rest of the talking points in your repertoire. Same stuff all the others here have been spouting. The only duty is to make profit. No duty to the law, no duty to the constitution, no duty to the people - the only duty is to the dollar. Your words. Words mean things. And when we carry the words to their logical end, this is where we end up. You'r compadres have already stated the other side plainly - regulation is all bad. I mentioned abolition on another thread and the response was as unbelievable as it was haughty and ignorant. You guys say things because they sound good; but, your constructs are equations - you don't like when we solve the equation with real world examples and real world consequences. There's nothing a sophist hates worst than having his words turned back on him to show him a fraud. Sorry, but you're arguments lead where they lead.

[discostu]

Plenty have moved manufacturing out of America because hey couldn't make a profit. You might be denying that's why they did it, but you'd be wrong. And even if they just make the move to increase profits, so what. There's nothing wrong with trying to increase the margin, again that is the point of business.

Ah yes "free traitor", can't go on facts so you run to the shelter of canned insults. Classic. Way to show you know you're full of it but don't have the fortitude to admit it.

And on top of that you throw in more LIES. I didn't say any restriction is wrong. STOPY LYING!

here's what's not OK:
Lying
erecting strawmen
resorting to pathetic insults
not having the reading comprehension of a six year old

Fix those and we can discuss this, until such time good luck dealing with your self induced ulcers.

[Havoc]

Welcome to the party LOL

[discostu]

Yawn. Another fool who can't read. Why is it all of you people have to throw in the strawman of murder for hire? Just shows how silly you are, even the mob knows murder is bad for business.

[XBob]

455 - "Ever tried to by a can opener?? The ones I've seen are all made in China."

A well thought out and IMO accurate reply, your whole post. But the can opener problem I noticed years ago, and I used to joke that if we went to war with China we would all starve, because we no longer make can openers here.

I no longer joke about it.

[Gekko The Great]

Whadza matta for you, eh? I'm agreeing with you. Don't you understand that capitalist jive? Kill, in the sense of ruin, destroy, run out of business, never see the light of day again, the-only-job-you'll-have-on-this-street-is-sweeping-it, that kind of kill. Why should it bother you either way? Sounds like you're a man after my own "heart" (like we really have one, NOT). Profits, profits, profits, money, money, money. To h*ll with everything else.

[discostu]

Your problem is that you take things to far. Duty to the law is achieved through duty to profit, breaking the law is usually unprofitable. Of course sometimes following the law is unprofitable, look up "cost of compliance" in regards to environmental regulation, especially look it up in relationship to Bush's time as governor of Texas. You'll learn a lot. When following the law is more expensive than breaking the law guess what businesses do? They just pay the fines and don't worry about it. That's a fine example of something being good for business (the path of least cost) and bad for society (polution), the fix is to modify the fines and the environmental laws until it's cheaper to follow the law than to break it, but you have to maintain balance, just raising the fines might make both costs too high then companies either go away or cease to exist.

Corporations don't have a duty to any constitution, they exist to make money, they don't vote, they don't fight in wars, they can't be elected for office. They pay taxes, that's about as deep as it gets.

They also don't have a duty to "the people", except for the members of the people that are investors in the company, their duty to them is to create profit so these people have a return on their investment.

Words do mean things, and when you repeatedly take things well beyond their logical conclusion you show a desperation that is frankly embarassing. Anything can be taken too far, that doesn't mean it's bad. If you drink too much water you'll die, that doesn't mean you shouldn't drink water. If you let business do anything they want they'll turn into the mob, that doesn't mean you shouldn't avoid unnecessary regulation.

The sophist here is yourself, taking everything too far, and running in terror from inconvenient points. As a person who worked for WalMart, whose business model is built on undercutting competition, which you say is immoral, you're part of your own problem. Welcome to reality, your own life experience clearly shows that your position is wrong at its face.

[discostu]

nothing the matter with me. The problem here lies with the person that's deliberately misreading (aka LYING) what I wrote. That would be YOU. Don't complain about other people's ethics while LYING, it shows you to be a hypocrite.

[XBob]

446 - "A bad econcomy kills/disables millions and disables our country and our military.
By that logic WWII should never have been fought."

A bad economy and runaway inflation created Hitler. (I have a postage stamp for 3 billion marks), and caused him to purge millions of Jews, and caused WWII.

The lack of oil and steel (bad economy) caused the Japenese to expand and and start WWII in Asia, killing millions.

A bad economy caused Stalin to purge millions of Kulaks.

A bad economy caused the starvation of hundreds of thousands perhaps millions in Asia/india - before the Green revolution.

Mao Tse Tung killed millions in China because of the bad economy.

Bad economies in Africa are currently killing millions.

Have you ever been to a country where the people are so poor they steal your letter before the stamp is cancelled to steal your stamp, because they are so poor? I have.

Bad economies kill millions, and when we in the US have to get involved, we lose thousands and hundreds of thousands.

[Poohbah]

Plenty have moved manufacturing out of America because hey couldn't make a profit. You might be denying that's why they did it, but you'd be wrong. And even if they just make the move to increase profits, so what. There's nothing wrong with trying to increase the margin, again that is the point of business.

One thing that you have to do is compare the return on investment to the level of risk incurred. This is known as "economic profit."

If you put your money at risk, and get an ROI equal to or less than risk-free investments (such as T-bills and tax-free municipal bonds), then you aren't really making a profit.