Spectre of Vietnam is stalking Bush

The Toronto Star ^ | 4-7-04 | TIM HARPER

[Oldeconomybuyer]

WASHINGTON—With U.S. troops fighting pitched battles on two Iraqi fronts last night, a question dismissed by the White House as naïve last summer has gained increasing currency this spring.

Is this George Bush's Vietnam?

The charge was made in a Monday speech by one of the country's most polarizing politicians, Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy, the 42-year veteran of Congress.

He struck a chord in this nation and the question was being put to the U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, on network television yesterday while most Americans were still digesting the latest Iraqi battles over their morning coffee.

By nightfall, with the Pentagon confirming at least 12 Americans dead in a firefight in Ramadi — and raging battles in Falluja suggesting the toll will rise — the Vietnam comparisons were everywhere.

"Oh, gee, I don't even know where to start with that comparison," Bremer told NBC's Today Show. "I think it's completely inappropriate. There's really nothing in common with Vietnam."

Others find much in common.

In strict terms, Iraq is not Vietnam, but the perception is taking hold and that alone could turn into a nightmare during an election campaign for Bush.

The differences are stark — some 58,000 Americans lost their lives in Vietnam in a conflict that lasted more than a decade against a well-entrenched and organized opponent.

When numbers are tallied from yesterday's fighting, the toll in Iraq will look like this:

More than 620 Americans dead in a conflict that's only in its 13th month, with most deaths the result of insurgents' guerrilla-style tactics.

"I completely agree this is Bush's Vietnam," said Terry Anderson, an expert on the Vietnam era and a veteran of the war who is now a historian at Texas A&M University.

"Just like (former U.S. president) Lyndon Johnson, (President George W.) Bush has totally misjudged the culture in which they are fighting," Anderson said in an interview.

"Just like LBJ, we are trying to bring democracy to people who are not particularly interested in U.S.-style democracy and just like LBJ, we are rotating out battle-hardened people with new troops. And just like LBJ, Bush is not telling Americans they are going to be there for years."

One difference, Anderson says, is that public support for the war in Iraq has ebbed much more quickly. He says the American electorate began turning against the Vietnam war only two years into the conflict, souring on it forever following the infamous 1968 Tet Offensive.

"You had massive rallies against this war even before Bush went in," he says, "because the Vietnam experience jump-started opposition to this war."

Two polls released this week show support for Bush's handling of the situation in Iraq hovering between 40 and 45 per cent, with mounting calls in Washington for a reappraisal of the June 30 target for handover of political power to Iraqis.

Bush was being briefed on last night's fighting at his ranch in Crawford, Tex., and the White House released a brief statement of resolve in response to reports of the U.S. deaths.

Bush will meet with his most steadfast ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, here next Friday, when the deteriorating situation and the June 30 handover will be discussed.

Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said yesterday if military commanders seek more troops to try to stabilize a worsening situation, they will get the help, although he said the U.S. has an artificially high number — 135,000 — in the country now because of the troop rotation under way.

"You're starting to hear that `Q' word — quagmire," pollster John Zogby told the Reuters news agency yesterday. That word has become synonymous with the Vietnam war which drove Johnson from office.

"The public seems confused," Zogby said. "How do we get out? Do we send more troops? How do we cut casualties? It's all becoming a big problem for Bush."

Rumsfeld said troops are involved in "dangerous work ... we're going to have good days and bad days."

But last June, when the words `Vietnam' and `quagmire' were put to Rumsfeld at a Pentagon briefing, he was dismissive of the questioners, even rejecting a dictionary definition of quagmire read to him by a reporter.

Part of that reaction is what some believe is another analogy to the Vietnam era — disingenuous reports of progress and good news from political leaders.

"We have to tell the American people that we are in this for the long haul. We cannot say, as we did in Vietnam, that the light is at the end of the tunnel," Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona said in an interview published yesterday in the Detroit Free Press.

Republicans railed against Kennedy, charging him with offering support to the enemy with Americans in peril and using American casualties for electoral advantage. But, as the most high-profile member of the Kerry team, Kennedy's words take on more weight with the distinct possibility he was speaking with tacit approval of the presumptive nominee.

Kerry would not make the Vietnam analogy yesterday, but said Bush had made a mistake in setting the arbitrary June 30 deadline for a political handoff in Iraq. (U.S. troops will remain, but there have been no official estimates of troop levels.)

"I have always said consistently that it is a mistake to set an arbitrary date and I hope that the date has nothing to do with the election here in the United States," Kerry said following a campaign stop in Cincinnati, Ohio. "I think they wanted to get the troops out and get the transfer out of the way as fast as possible... The test ought to be the stability of Iraq and not an arbitrary date."

Former U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix also weighed in yesterday, telling a Danish newspaper the costs of the war in Iraq outweigh the benefits of removing Saddam Hussein.

"It's clearly the negative aspects that dominate," he Jyllands-Posten. "Bush declared war as a part of the U.S. war on terror, but instead of limiting the effects of terror, the war has laid the foundation for even more terror."

Additional articles by Tim Harper

[neefer]

"You had massive rallies against this war even before Bush went in,"

And Bremer had so many U.S. civilian volunteers that he had to turn many away. If this is Vietnam all over again, where are the burning ROTC buildings?

[Gritty]

You're starting to hear that `Q' word — quagmire," pollster John Zogby told the Reuters news agency yesterday

That's because the Media and Liberals are breathlessly repeating it in the hope it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy!

[cynicom]

"The charge was made in a Monday speech by one of the country's most polarizing politicians, Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy, the 42-year veteran of Congress"

Members of FR see no reason for term limits. The socialist voters of Mass agree.

[snooker]

This guy is obviosly more comfortable with Bill Clintoons' Rawanda.

[razorbak]

Iraq is no Vietnam. But I sure wish Vietnam had been an Iraq. Wouldn't it have been nice to have rolled through Vietnam like we could have in a few weeks or months and captured Ho Chi Minh hiding in a spider hole? We would have had occasional pockets of resistance for awhile, but the end would have been inevitable.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

We just smashed the Ho Chi Mihn Trail this morning. That's the difference between W and LBJ.

[sergeantdave]

In Vietnam we fought three enemies: the communists in the jungle, the communists on the American streets and the communists in the American press.

I'm back in the US now, and I will make my presence known to the latter two groups. Count on it, you bastards.

[mass55th]

""You're starting to hear that `Q' word — quagmire," pollster John Zogby told the Reuters news agency yesterday..."

Quagmire is what I've experienced from the Zoby Interactive Survey. I used to be on their email list to participate in their surveys. The last three times I attempted to complete their surveys, I experienced an extremely slow loading of their pages, which ended up taking me over a half hour to complete the questions. I tried emptying my cache, rebooting my computer, and using three different browsers: Apple's Safari, Microsoft's Internet Explorer, and Netscape. None of them worked. I have a G4 iMac with Road Runner connection and up until the last few times of attempting to take their survey, I never experienced a problem with their system.

After the first slow survey, I tried writing their website person: chad@zogby.com regarding the problems I was experiencing. I never received a response. After the second survey arrived in my email and the same problem existed, I wrote chad@zogby.com again and even filed to have my email address removed from their database. I figured it was a lost cause since nobody had bothered to advise me if there was indeed a problem with their survey system. Yesterday, I received yet another email to participate in their survey. Again, I tried to proceed through the survey, but again, it was slower than molasses. So, I figured I'd once again request to have my name removed from their mailing list since the first time hadn't worked. When I clicked on the link to have my email removed, I received a page that said that I had already previously requested to have my email removed.

Frustrating? You bet! I decided to write chad@zogby.com one more time about the slowness of the survey, and to please have my email removed from their database. I also made a copy and sent it to John Zogby through their "Ask John" link. I was rather snotty, and stated that since I hadn't heard from a human person in response to my previous emails or requests to have my email removed, that I was beginning to think that chad@zogby.com was nothing more than one of those pieces of paper hanging to a Florida ballot.

Well, I guess that got somebody off their fat ass to respond. Shortly afterwards, I received an email from chad@zogby.com that my email had been removed from their database. No response to the repeat question about the slowness of their website, just that my email address had been removed.

Have any other Freepers recently experienced the same or other problems with the Zogby surveys?

[mass55th]

This must be where Mr. Zogby heard the word "Quagmire."

"Iraq war becoming a quagmire", by Helen Thomas"

[LauraJean]

Teddy Kennedy is a treasonese blowhard who should shut his piehole. He is giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

[cousair]

Yes, I have. I responded much the same as you did, and finally got a note from someone called "John Zogby", but they still have me on their email list. Just remember who Zogby is and that he messes with numbers on the polls he sends out. I am sure that is why I got the email when he read what I accused him of. This happened a year ago.

[Mudboy Slim]

"These people are shameless."

Yep...fortunately fer US, though, they are also exceedingly transparent in forwarding their vacuous lies!! I look forward to debating Leftists who try to make this "another VietNam" assertion stick in my presence. The argument falls apart so easily when confronted with the facts.

FReegards...MUD

[mass55th]

Thanks for your response. At least I know I'm not alone. I'm not usually paranoid, but the left would go to any lengths to get the survey results they want. Dare I say, even create a "quagmire" for conservative survey participants?

[AFPhys]

Americans learned a valuable lesson in 'Nam... even those who were protesters...

The lesson was "WIN" - Do what it takes to win - or don't do it at all.

We're doing it, and we have a president who understands what it takes to allow the military to win.

The public will support his approach overwhelmingly.

As was said by several in different ways, any chance that this analogy gets traction the libs would like is simply a wet dream they're having. They'll wake up in a week or a month or so... And they'll want to go asleep again for four years when they find out what happens to them in November...

[Mudboy Slim]

"In Vietnam we fought three enemies: the communists in the jungle, the communists on the American streets and the communists in the American press. I'm back in the US now, and I will make my presence known to the latter two groups."

I'm right with you, Sergeant...our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are giving up everything for this Country in taking the fight to the Enemies of America. We also need to give it our all in fighting the Leftists within our borders!! Our soldiers won't let US down and we can't afford to let them down.

FReegards...MUD

[walford]

"The Leftists who continue to give our enemies hope that America will give up are being seditious, plain and simple!! And Americans need to call 'em on it!!"

They're HOPING that Iraq will be another Viet Nam. Just think about it. They hope for a precipitous withdrawal so that Iraq will sink into a civil war. Then another dictatorship will arise, that will most likely threaten the region and the flow of petroleum [which will threaten the world economy].

All of this these harpies are hoping for so that they can derive political gain.

In the interest of the Iraqi people, America and the cause of peace and freedom in general we should hope it will be another post WWII Germany. I understand there were pockets of resistance after hostilities ended there also.

[logician2u]

Is this George Bush's Vietnam?

Only if he and his neocon advisers think they are going to win hearts and minds.

[mass55th]

After I wrote my comments about the Zogby surveys, I wrote chad@zogby.com again and thanked him for taking my name off their database, but could he please address the problem with slowness of their surveys. Believe it or not, I got an actual response. Here it is: We have been testing a new server and it was having a few errors. We are working on another new server to take care of the slow pages.

Chad

At least I know that the problem wasn't my fault!! You'd think that they would have suspended the surveys since they were obviously having problems with slowness, until such time as they got their "bugs" worked out. Morons!

[Mudboy Slim]

"Americans learned a valuable lesson in 'Nam... even those who were protesters..."

To quote the Honorable Robert H. Bork, "The [1968 Left-Wing] radicals, expecting stern opposition, were astounded by, and contemptuous of, the universities' rapid surrender. They learned that ours is a soft culture with a bad conscience; MORAL INTIMIDATION WORKS!" (emphasis mine)

The American military didn't fail US in VietNam, the American people did. We allowed the Leftists to control the agenda, and it's not a failure we can afford to repeat this time around. Simply voting for the right guy every 2-4 years is not enough, we must confront the Left in the Media and in the streets!! I think we're up to the challenge this time, I really do!!

FReegards...MUD

[Mudboy Slim]

"They're HOPING that Iraq will be another Viet Nam. Just think about it. They hope for a precipitous withdrawal so that Iraq will sink into a civil war. Then another dictatorship will arise, that will most likely threaten the region and the flow of petroleum [which will threaten the world economy]."

Yep...it's amazing how the Left has positioned itself to only prosper if America fails!! What an awful way to be going into an election, hoping for evil things--in Iraq and in the economy--to occur so that they can regain their power. It's a recipe fer disaster fer the DemonRATS 'cuz if things go well between now and November, we could be witnessing a major blowout with the RATS losing 6-8 Senate seats and 15-20 House seats in addition to Kerry gettin' blown out!!

FReegards...MUD