Doctor: Fetus Feels Pain After 20 Weeks

AP via Yahoo ^ | 6 April 2004 | KEVIN O'HANLON

[churchillbuff]

LINCOLN, Neb. - A type of abortion banned under a new federal law would cause "severe and excruciating" pain to 20-week-old fetuses, a medical expert on pain testified Tuesday.

"I believe the fetus is conscious," said Dr. Kanwaljeet "Sonny" Anand, a pediatrician at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. He took the stand as a government witness in a trial challenging the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.

The act, which was signed by President Bush (news - web sites) in November, has not been enforced because judges in Lincoln, Neb., New York and San Francisco agreed to hear evidence in three simultaneous, non-jury trials on whether the ban violates the Constitution.

Anand said fetuses show increased heart rate, blood flow and hormone levels in response to pain.

"The physiological responses have been very clearly studied," he said. "The fetus cannot talk ... so this is the best evidence we can get."

The Bush administration has argued that the procedure, referred to by opponents as "partial-birth abortion," is "inhumane and gruesome" and causes the fetus to suffer pain.

During the procedure, which doctors call "intact dilation and extraction" or D&X, a fetus is partially removed from the womb and its skull is punctured. It is generally performed in the second trimester.

Abortion rights advocates argue that it is sometimes the safest procedure for women, and that the law will endanger almost all second-trimester abortions, or 10 percent of the nation's 1.3 million annual abortions.

The law would be the first substantial limitation on abortion since the Supreme Court legalized it 31 years ago in the landmark case Roe v. Wade (news - web sites).

Challenges to the ban were filed by several doctors being represented by the Center for Reproductive Rights, the National Abortion Federation (news - web sites) and the Planned Parenthood (news - web sites) Federation of America. The issue is expected to reach the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites).

[tortoise]

Your comparison of the human brain to a 'reptilian' one is sickening and inhuman.

I don't choose to disbelieve things just because I viscerally dislike them, and people who follow such a path are essentially worthless human beings (c.f. socialists). There are a lot of facts about the world that we live in that I definitely do not like and wish weren't true, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that those facts aren't true just because it would be more comfortable to believe so. As it happens, I am actually indifferent to the fact that the human brain doesn't bootstrap out of reptilian mode until after birth. I don't see what difference that actually makes -- a lot of human equipment doesn't fully function until longer after the brain does.

It is worth noting that the reason the higher brain functions and structures do not develop until after birth is that it would necessarily greatly increase the size of the baby's head, which already has a difficult time getting through the birth canal. The brain comes online incrementally as it finishes developing, but generally isn't 100% until the age of 2 or so. This isn't novel or even particularly esoteric. Neurophysiology, development, and cognitive function is related to some work I do and I am kind of expected to be versed in it to some minimum level of competence.

[Krodg]

Here are a few comments from 'caring' left...

"and i believe that the partial birth abortions are only performed then a mothers life is in danger. so whether or not fetus feels pain does not make a difference. i have a right to choose my life over anyone elses when there is a life threatening situation."

"Personally, I'd like to see these procedures done under short acting general anesthesia, less traumatic to the mom and would put the fetus under also, if it is capable of sensing pain and being distressed by it, highly unlikely but remotely possible."

"increased heart rate, blood flow and hormone levels" are not proof of pain. People have these physiological reactions to many non-painful stimuli. It is a big leap to conclude "pain."

"Fetuses should be anaesthetized.

Look, even if we agree that the fetus ain't a person, I think the same standards should be applied to it that we require for animal research. Pain relief should be delivered if the fetus is capable of feeling pain. End of problem."

And this unbelievable post...

"I've had early ultrasounds with both my children, 11 weeks to be exact.I saw both sucking their thumbs. I've got photos of this to give them someday. Even that early they are little formed humans.

I wouldn't doubt a 20 week fetus can feel pain, I wouldn't doubt a 11 week old fetus feels pain. I wish there were no need for abortions, but it is a woman's choice(at 20 weeks it is most likely to save her life due to toxemia or something similar. I had toxemia late in my pregnancy, fortunately both my baby and myself made it through fine."

I understand that toxemia can be dangerous and lead to preeclampsia, but this mother of two (who agrees a fetus can feel pain) would rather see a woman choose to kill her baby rather than go through the necessary treatment! Let's not inconvenience the mother!!

How can you protect yourself and your baby from the effects of preeclampsia? See your doctor for regular prenatal check-ups throughout your pregnancy. He or she will measure your blood pressure and test your urine for signs of preeclampsia and begin treatment immediately if there is a problem. Early intervention is essential. In mild or early stages, preeclampsia can be controlled.

Treatment includes complete bed rest, a low-salt, high-protein diet and medication. In most cases, once treatment begins, symptoms reverse almost immediately and there is rapid recovery.

http://www.alexian.org/progserv/babies/secondtri/toxemia.html

[VeritatisSplendor]

premature babies are responsive. do their brains kick in early? Premature babies do much better surviving operations if they have anesthesia - doctors used to think otherwise. Unborn babies given operations get anesthesia too,

Babies in the womb respond to stimuli, they learn - maybe you think they learn no better than rats or reptiles. But people who tear the limbs off rats and lizards to kill them are cruel and evil.

What is consciousness, anyway? That's hard to define, or to defend if you aren't too good at communicating with the people in power, whether you are an animal, or a fetus, or a child, or disabled.

Pain is easy to define. If something acts like it's hurt, let's assume it's hurt.

Mrs VS

[grellis]

Why even deal with the question of pain? I would much rather corner doctors with this question: at what point during conception is unique human DNA created? The creation of unique DNA is the beginning of an individual life. There's no grey area here. A great potion of said individual's life is mapped out by the creation of this unique DNA. When you destroy this unique individual an innocent life is put to death.

[AMDG&BVMH]

There's no reason why the 'fairer sex' can not live up to the same post-coital responsibilities that we demand of menfolk - but when one's free will re: pregnancy has been subjugated, matters change.

Subjugated, who is more subjugated than the baby? You probably wouldn't like to be executed for a crime your father committed. It's easy to say yes to abortion when you are not the one being killed.

Women are hurt by abortion, yes including those resulting from rape. Would you like to wake up screaming and crying realizing that you had killed someone in the past? Abortion Hurts Women. Too.

[To supplement your predominate good reasoning on the issue ;) ]

P.S. The rape exception also shreds the pro-life premise that we are talking about another, separate human life. If it is a living child, it can't legitimately be killed. Not even if its father was a rapist. ;)

[Eddie Dean]

Subjugated, who is more subjugated than the baby? You probably wouldn't like to be executed for a crime your father committed. It's easy to say yes to abortion when you are not the one being killed.

Settle down, Kimosabe... I know this is a touchy subject, but forcing a woman to bear a child of rape gets a little too close to slavery for my liking.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"but forcing a woman to bear a child of rape gets a little too close to slavery for my liking"

Well, I do appreciate your concern for the autonomy of the woman. But 9 months is not very much time, to save the life of another human being. It seems like a long time when you are going through it, but: well, I asked my mom how naseaous she got because I had quite a bit. She told me she could not remember. She had 8 pregnancies, and could not remember!! . . . Besides, pregnancy is not as much like "slavery" as having an infant or a toddler! You still have freedom of movement, most of the time, when you are pregnant. The baby goes where you go, no diaper bags and etc. needed. ;)

The biology of the human race, however, means that we are not and cannot be totally autonomous independent beings. So, because of our physical nature, slavery is NOT the proper analogy. Pregnancy is the way human persons come about.

We are connected to others, not only socially and for psychological health, but physically. The navel is a reminder of that; it serves no purpose for an autonomous adult -- but it reminds us that each of us came the route of the fetus. No where is that interdependence more true in the case of the pregnant woman. It is not only the child that is dependent upon her for its life during that time; but her physiology is changed forever by any pregnancy. Even if she does not "want" to bear the child of the rapist, she already does (if she is pregnant). She already does bear it, and she can only rid herself of it by killing it.

This interdependence means that the woman will be hurt by the abortion, even if she thinks she will not.

However, I too believe there is nothing wrong with wanting to "compromise" legislatively to reduce the extent of abortion to the hard cases the other side lays their claims by. I won't, however, concede the issue morally, that the mother is more important than the child and the living child should be killed if she does not want it in the hard cases.

Think of this scenario: the woman is a vibrant professional, but the conditions of pregnancy require bed rest for the last months of the pregnancy. By now, abortion is available only for rape or incest, and it would be too late, anyway (Eddie Dean having been successful in getting the laws changed.) But she argues: I would be reduced to the status of a slave if I have to stay in bed for months for the benefit of this "other." Yes, I was taking responsibility for the generative act; but I did not know that I would have to stay in bed as a slave for the last trimester!

[Jaidyn]

A slooooow tortoise, maybe? Babies' skin is extra sensitive. That is a major reason why hospitals don't like for mothers to handle their premature babies very much. Most full-term babies prefer to be swathed tightly in blankets for the same reason.

[tortoise]

premature babies are responsive. do their brains kick in early? Premature babies do much better surviving operations if they have anesthesia - doctors used to think otherwise. Unborn babies given operations get anesthesia too,

Actually, most lab animals are given anaesthesia for the same reasons; organisms respond vigorously to the stress of damage, even relatively primitive ones with limited nervous systems, which can be more damaging than the surgical procedure itself. It takes very little brain function to be a responsive organism -- most animals manage it with very primitive brains.

What you will probably find creepy is that animals used in biology labs (of which there are dozens of species, depending on what you are researching) are killed using a method very similar to how a fetus is often killed during an abortion.

Babies in the womb respond to stimuli, they learn - maybe you think they learn no better than rats or reptiles. But people who tear the limbs off rats and lizards to kill them are cruel and evil.

Right, and therein is something of a very questionable inconsistency. People who abhor killing rats but are okay with killing a fetus are completely lacking a useful and consistent morality. I think it is a similar kind of moral weakness/absurdity to those people that love to eat meat but are appalled at the idea of killing an animal, never mind actually killing the animal themselves.

I can deal with a person who has a consistent morality, even if I disagree with them. People with inconsistent moralities fall somewhere between useless and dangerous.

[Lancey Howard]

How 'bout at 19 weeks and 6 days?

19 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes?
Etc.

[tortoise]

A slooooow tortoise, maybe? Babies' skin is extra sensitive. That is a major reason why hospitals don't like for mothers to handle their premature babies very much. Most full-term babies prefer to be swathed tightly in blankets for the same reason.

Huh? This doesn't relate to anything I wrote, so I'm not following...

[Tailgunner Joe]

A cow fetus is also sentient, it's just not human.

Human fetuses are, of course, human.

[wingnuts'nbolts]

What hair splitting, what nonsense. In the 1950's I read that surgery done on infants was done without anesthesia because they could not feel pain due to the undeveloped state of their nervous systems. Hog Wash! God, how could you think that, Doctors? That's right up there with the closing of all lying in hospitals rather than cleaning up, doctors washing their hands, changing the linen. Child bed fever being the serial killer. In some hospitals the mortality rate was 100%. Dr. Semelweiss(sp?) finally infected himself with child bed fever, and died to prove his point. Wash up!

I simply do not understand how anyone can think an unborn baby is not a human being, nervous system and all. I can understand how some can ignore this to make their lives more simple, but they must know what they are doing. It boggles my mind!

[Tribune7]

bump

[aruanan]

Human fetuses are, of course, human.

Precisely my point. Talking about feeling or not feeling pain is irrelevant and takes a back seat to the humanity of the fetus.

[wingnuts'nbolts]

Turtle dear, you forgot to metion in your profile that you are skilled at piano tuning and lion taming among your other amazing accomplishments. I dunno, can't think why you would profess babies that scream when they are circumcised don't feel pain!!!!!

[jwalsh07]

The parts of the brain required for consciousness are developed post-natal (there are good practical reasons that things work this way in nature), and the only part of the brain that is really even online in a fetus is the most low-level reptilian parts that are essential to running basic life support.

This is garbage science.

[Lady Eileen]

Like I always say...keep your knees together until you are ready to raise a child. Everything else is a reproductive wrong.

I agree...Well said.

[Dan from Michigan]

Since I was almost born 3 months early, I bet this doc is 100% right on.

[jwalsh07]

Age Post-menstrual (Post-conceptional)	Comment	Fetal sentience could occur	Reference
4.5 (2.5)	Development of spinal cord and brain begins		Kuljis (1994) [1]
6 (4)	Nerves start to grow, but no connections reported between them		Okado et al (1979) [2]
7 (5)	First observed synapses between neurones		Okado et al (1979) [3]
7 (5)	First fibres arrive in the cerebral vesicles. Start to form the primordial plexiform layer		Marin-Padilla et al (1982)[4]
7.5 (5.5)	Earliest reported fetal movements		De Vries et al (1982) [5] Humphrey (1964) [6]
8.5 (6.5)	Head, trunk and pelvis move away from a stimulus		De Vries et al (1982)[7]
9 (7)	Electrical activity detected in developing brain stem		Brokowski & Berstine[8] Bergstrom (1969) [9]
10 (8)	Development of higher brain begins		Marin-Padilla (1978) [10]
10 (8)	Synapse formation within the spine		Okado N (1980) [11]
10-11 (8-9)	Isolated fetal breathing movements		De Vries et al (1982) [12]
10-11 (8-9)	Initial development of the thalamus	McCullagh*	McCullagh [13]
11 (9)	Stimulation of hands causes partial finger closure		De Vries et al (1982) [14]
12.5 (10.5)	Stimulation of lips elicits reflex swallowing		De Vries et al [15]
13 (11)	Sensory receptors on hands, feet and face		Humphrey (1964) [16]
13 (11)	Glover believes this is probably the first date at which a fetus can have an awareness of pain	Glover	Glover oral submission [17]
16 (14)	Episodes of regular fetal breathing movements		De Vries et al (1982) [18]
20-22 (18-20)	Nerves connect between cortex and thalamus		Laroche (1981) [19]
20 (18)	Electrical activity recorded in the thalamus		Bergstrom (1969) [20]
22 (20)	Sensory receptors on all surfaces		Humphrey (1964) [21]
23 (21)	Mount hormonal stress response to needle placement for blood transfusions		Giannakoulopoulos [22]
26 (24)	Sensory input can reach cortex - therefore pain signals could reach the areas of consciousness	Fitzgerald	Report to DoH [23]
30 (28)	Myelination complete in pain pathways		Gilles et al (1993) [24]
Birth or later		Derbyshire	Derbyshire [25]