Suspect in Madrid Bombing Lived in Germany

"Spiegel-Online" ^ | March 25, 2004 | "Spiegel-Online"

[longjack]

March 25, 2004

TERRORIST ATTACKS IN MADRID

Suspect from Hesse Arrested

In the investigation into the terrorist attacks in Madrid, authorities have hit upon their first clues leading to Germany. At least one of the three suspects Spanish police arrested on Wednesday shall have lived for years in Hesse. Chief Federal Prosecutor Nehm has taken up the case.

AP

Arrests in Madrid: Clues leading to Germany?

Hamburg - The Spanish police have come a step further in the search for the ringleaders of the attacks on three commuter trains in Madrid. As the Spanish Department of the Interior announced on Thursday evening, three more persons have been  arrested.

The suspects from Northern Africa shall have been picked up in the greater Madrid area. One of the men is a Moroccan who has lived in a large Hessian city for quite some time. Spanish investigators have only confirmed that one of the suspects was registered occasionally in Germany. According to the "Welt", the man was  registered by the authorities as a particularly violent and dangerous, islamic criminal. With the most recent arrests, 19 suspects are in police custody

According to a correspondent from ARD, though, the five men arrested so far are only suspected of having supplied logistical help for the devastating attacks on March 11. This report hasn't been confirmed thus far, though.

The news station n-tv reported, referencing secret service circles, that the attacks shall have also been prepared for in Germany. A spokeswoman for the Federal Criminal Investigation Agency in Wiesbaden declined to comment on it this evening. In explaining her reasons, she referred to the on-going preliminary investigation by the Chief Federal Prosecutor in connection with the attacks in Madrid. Chief Federal Prosecutor Kay Nehm has taken up the case.

The bomb attacks killed 190 people on four suburban trains in Madrid, more than 1500 were injured. On Wednesday evening examining magistrate Juan Del Olmo issued warrants against two further suspects. Among them was, for the first time, a woman. The newspaper "El Mundo" reported that the Moroccan Naima Oulad may be able to provide possibly important information for the investigators in their search for the terrorists.

The police assume that the woman knows all the terrorists who had been involved in the attacks. A brother of the Moroccan is in police custody and should be brought before the examining magistrate on Friday. The woman herself denied having any thing to do with the attacks.

Moroccan terror experts assume that the Jordanian Abu Musab Sarkawi could have given the order for the attacks. At present the follower of terrorist chief Osama bin Laden is participating, according to information from the Spanish newspaper "El País", in armed actions against the occupation forces in Iraq. The Moroccan Abdelkarim Mejjati could have functioned as the intermediary between Sarkawi and the terror command in Madrid. The 36-year-old shall have been involved in the attacks in May 2003 in Casablanca with 45 dead, then went underground.

© SPIEGEL ONLINE

2004 "Spiegel-Online"....Verdächtiger aus Hessen festgenommen

Translated by longjack

 

 

[pepsionice]

There are several ongoing problems. First, there are numerous neighborhoods in Germany...almost all Muslim in nature that the cops simply refuse to drive or go through now period. If someone calls in a complaint, it will take a team of at least six cops to make one visit to an apartment complex in these zones. The German authorities really don't like to have this brought up...and it shows that they are not in control of their nation any longer. Second, the liberal left view of "loving your refugees and auslanders"...is going to be hard to keep down. And third, the number of low-paying jobs which only the Turks or 3rd world Muslims are willing to work...really makes it difficult to just kick them out.

My thinking is that this will go on for three to five more years, and then a growing right-wing establishment will start to take root in the eastern sections of Germany. There is already talk of the unions taking their support from the SPD and creating a new political party. I suspect that the right-wingers may view the CDU/CSU in the same fashion and work to establish a 8-percent party (same concept that Hitler used in the 1920s).

[An.American.Expatriate]

I agree.

I think though that the nieghbor was refering to the "friend" the guy stayed with. This would fit the SOP of these guys. Even this morning it was clear to me, from having seen the reports, that the guy everyone is concentrating on really was only there a brief time.

[longjack]

How about this current issue with the general German population? Do you think it would make a difference to them if it was discovered that the islamics planned the attack in Germany.

I have it in my head somehow that you live near Kaiserslautern. I think I read that in one of your posts.

I lived there quite a while, and I don't consider them to be the real 'out-there' liberals like the Berlin types, for example.

Do you think that the K-Town type of German would draw a line and say this is it, or have they all somehow said the hell with it, there's too many Muslims, and given up?

Interesting, also, about the splinter parties. I posted on the Merkel thread the other day that I didn't think the 50% CDU/CSU polls were very solid. I thought they would dissipate whenever the Union tried to tackle the reforms. I did think, though, that some voters would probably move back to the SPD. The splinter parties sounds like a more reasonable scenario, now that you've mentioned it.

longjack

[longjack]

"Spiegel" is backing off the story, too. They're calling the leads to germany lukewarm.

We'll see what tomorrow brings.

longjack

[pepsionice]

If you remember the general public lack of trust in politicans in the 1920s...led straight to political splinter parties becoming the rave. Hitler simply rode out that wave ahead of the other groups and utilized radio as his major media vehicle...the perfect instrument for a guy with great speech-making ability. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist now to figure out that the internet could be used in the same fashion. If you look at the numbers...and take into consideration the push by the unions for their own support party...it doubtful that any major party will be able to take more than 30 percent of the vote within 10 years in Germany. Its the same receipe that Hitler had at his disposal.

As for the K-town angle...it is conservitive...and its walking through its unemployment landmine area. Its practically impossible for new businesses to get started, and you see empty storefronts around town all the time. Wal-Mart tried to come in and found the city council blocking them at renting property. The locals are looking for some future for the youth...in terms of jobs...but just isn't going to be much except Becker (the local garbage king), Opel (which is going down the tubes), and Mom & Pop operations (30 employees or less). The Americans are pumping the local economy as much as possible, and the politicans are being very careful not upset the situation. When the left-wing nuts had their anti-war protest at Ramstein last weekend...less than 2,000 people showed...although they had predicted 5,000. Not a single mayor from any of the local towns showed up to the protest. LaFontain, the unemployed chancellor "wanna-be" was the only name to show up.

As for the Muslims...the further south you go in Germany...the less likely you are to run into them. I have noticed this. Yes, there is a mosque in Munich. But if you compare the numbers to Frankfurt or Hamburg...its a heck of a lot less. Bayern folks are less likely to accept Muslims, and its apparent that they aren't welcome in the region. The first real test will be if Bayern and its regional government starts to take on the Muslims and start passing laws that counter the national standard. Schroeder will be hardpressed to counter them...thus making himself look like a Muslim-lover.

[longjack]

OK.

Thanks for the answer. I liked the K-Town area, especially Trippstadt where I lived for a while. I still follow 'Betze', even the last few couple of shaky years. I hope they and the city can pull through the tough times ahead.

longjack

[Boot Hill]

I think it's great that Eurabia is tracking down the terrorists responsible for the Madrid bombings, but their approach is fatally flawed because they are still trying to treat terrorism as if it were a law enforcement issue. The terrorists know better, this is war. I doubt Eurabia has the cajones to wake up to this fact before they have been defeated and subjugated.

--Boot Hill

[An.American.Expatriate]

Just checked Spiegle & the FAZ - the story is "dead".

Schilly discounted the story. "There is no evidence that the attack in Madrid was planned or prepared in Germany."

A spokesman for the SPD claims, "The assertion that Germany is a paradise for terrorists is totally without merit."

Last article was dated 27 March.

One point of interest for our, oh so PC "defense" system - the Germans use (and are pushing the rest of the EU to do so as well) "Rasterfahndung" - what is that? PROFILING!

(of course if America were to start using it, these pigs would probably squeal!)

[longjack]

Thanks for the folow up.

One thing that caught my eye was that Schily said "planned" and "prepared". My original instict to scrutinize the "Spiegel" use of the term "vorbereiten" was on the mark. For some reason having terrorists plan attacks is a radioactive item, and "Spiegel" wasn't going to go there until it had more information.

"FAZ", though, wrote that the attacks were planned there and that more terrorists were going to be arrested. "FAZ" is generally pretty reliable, too. That was surprising.

10-4 about the computer search. To find terrorist suspects just type in "swarthy arabian males who are living in Germany", print out the resulting list, and give it to the polizei to round them up. It makes it a lot quicker when you don't have to interrogate a few million little old ladies and WW II veterans for appearences sake.

longjack

[An.American.Expatriate]

here's some more on the German reaction to the Madrid Attacks - don't have time to translate them, but they may make an interesting thread:

Beckstein: Terrorgefahr ernster als zugegeben

and

Abschiebe-Verfahren soll vereinfacht werden

The first article has the Interior Minister of Bavaria blasting the government for not informing the public of the real threat and the Justice Minister telling him to "calm down, we have everything under control". It includes a link to the second article which outlines the Governments plans for combatting terrorism. Basically, someone who is suspected of terrorism will recieve a summary process and be deported!

Thus the german plan is, if we find one, will just send him somewhere else! This is sure to make Germany less attractive for planning and preparing terrorist attacks in the future. I can now sleep peacefully know the Germans are taking such a hard stand!

[sibbel]

You are wrong on that,
it means that someone who is "Suspected" to be a terrorist will be send back to the country, he so calles "fled-from".
Hence, if someone demands asylum and is a "suspected" terrorist, they rather deport him to his home country where it is easier to have him killed. They are just not allowed to say so in Germany, because our constitution does not allow us to deport anyone to a state, where he faces deeth penalty

[An.American.Expatriate]

excuse me sibbel, but this has nothing to to with Asylum seekers! It is for any foreigner in your country!

Also, your famous "no death penalty" excuse will still be used. Indeed, Schilly has suggested indefinate imprisonment in such cases (adding to fears he wants a German Guantanemo!). This was more or less withdrawn as the Greens and the radical left will NEVER support it.

So basically, a known terrorist will not be deported to a country which has the death penalty and will be "free" to roam the streets (as we have seen twice already).

[An.American.Expatriate]

Oh, and Welcome to Free Republic

[sibbel]

I see your point,
but now you go a bit far...
terrorists, which are not yet known to be terrorists cannot be banned from roaming the streets can they.
And even in America under the Patriot Act, terrorist suspects cannot be held indefinetley can they. They will have te be released sooner or later and thus be "free to roam the streets". But still they will be put out of service as their every move will be watched...

Thanks for that...

Actually I had a good idea on that...

If you want to catch the fish, it is easiest to drain the pont...

[An.American.Expatriate]

Don't distort or misquote.

I said KNOWN terrorists.

So, as I said, Germany's solution to the problem is to send the terrorist elsewhere (back home) where he is free to continue to plot / kill. In the case of a possible death penalty, the terrorist can remain in Germany, free to plot / kill.

I'm sure the terrorists will get the message and stay home!

[sibbel]

Sorry, I have to nag again.
I didn't misquote you. I just suggest a proper translation of the article. I says terror-suspects not terrorists in the article. America wouldn't harbour extremists either, but send them right back were they are coming from. You cannot imprison someone indefinitely on the mere suspicion of being a terrorist...So, sooner or later any terror suspect will roam free, but then under the watchful eye of all security agencies of the world. Cause those agencies seem to cooperate world-wide (at least on terror).

[An.American.Expatriate]

... says terror-suspects not terrorists in the article. It would be better to stop them before they have a chance to "become" terrorists - but Germany would rather send them home - nioce deterent.

America wouldn't harbour extremists either, but send them right back were they are coming from. You cannot imprison someone indefinitely WRONG - we can and do detain them on the mere suspicion of being a terrorist Terrorism is not criminal, and treating it as a criminal problem will not protect the lives of the innocent. Terrorism is war. In a war, "suspected" combatants are imprisoned for the duration - unless somehow cleared of supporting the enemy. ...So, sooner or later any terror suspect will roam free, but then under the watchful eye of all security agencies of the world. Only in the EU will they roam free. As for the security agencies - please tell me how the ever watchful security agencies prevented one the "Church of the Nativity" Terrorists (not suspects!) from robbing / bombing several banks in the Netherlands! Cause those agencies seem to cooperate world-wide (at least on terror). Unless of course the terrorist migh possibly be subject to the death penalty, in which case all cooperation is refused (see the French and the 20th Hijacker for example.)

[sibbel]

But I do not like indefinite imprisonments without trial, it denies you any civil rights. If you talk about war, you have to at least grant them POW rights...I think great nations, talking about liberty and democracy, have to shine bright even in the case of war. Although such a treatment of suspects might be tempting, it casts doubts on the just cause of the nation.

With respect to intern. cooperations of security agencies I was referring to the post 9/11 world. I do not know about your Church of Nativity example...
Tell me about it

I doubt that many terror suspects have the possibilities to plot and roam free anymore. Unless vital information on a case is supressed, as in the Hamburg trials. Which was a shame for German and US officials... How stupid can they be

[An.American.Expatriate]

The prisonors at Guantanemo are treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions - thus they are treated as POW's even if officially designated otherwise.

I too was refering to post 9/11 when refering to the lack of cooperation by the EU.

Your lack of knowledge that the EU granted asylum to the terrorists who held many hostage in Bethlemhem 2 years ago also shows the lack of information your media gives to such things.

Apparently in Germany (and the rest of the EU) terrorists DO roam free and plot - even with knowledge of who they are!!

The Hamburg trials are a perfect example of why you can't deal with terrorists in the manner germany proposes - they are tried and, because some liberal judges believe that an alleged letter from a terrorist absolves the suspects, the sentence is overturned / the terrorist is aquitted.

The US is still trying to make a case against the supposed author of the letter, and the germans insists upon letting him testify which would basically ruin the case being built - any claim by him which would absolve a co-conspirator of wrong doing is anyway suspect - but . . .

So, the motto - go to Germany, provide material help in the murder of over 3000 people and be free to do it again (but maybe in another country).

[sibbel]

I knew that some of them went to Netherlands but I know nothing of bombings and bank robberies...

"The Hamburg trials are a perfect example of why you can't deal with terrorists in the manner germany proposes - they are tried and, because some liberal judges believe that an alleged letter from a terrorist absolves the suspects, the sentence is overturned / the terrorist is aquitted."

Well that is the problem, one of them is convicted (although he appealed to the verdict, as is every human beings right)...the other couldn't be convicted because there was no proof. The only vitness to make the case was an idiot showing up with a wierd wig and giving false statements full of contradictions. If we arrest everybody a terrorists ever talked to, we would be a terror regime as well.

"The US is still trying to make a case against the supposed author of the letter, and the germans insists upon letting him testify which would basically ruin the case being built - any claim by him which would absolve a co-conspirator of wrong doing is anyway suspect - but . . . "
The turmoil wasn't about the letter only, it was also about protocolls of the interrogations of that bloke.