The VVAW Assassination Discussion - "A lot of people were convinced that this was the way to do it."

March 25, 2004 | Compiled

[Sabertooth]

[Terry DuBose] TDB: That was also where there was actually some discussion of assassinating some senators during the Christmas holidays. They were people who I knew from the organization with hotheaded rhetoric.

They had a list of six senators ... Helms, John Tower, and I can't remember the others, who they wanted to assassinate when they adjourned for Christmas. They were the ones voting to fund the war.

About Helms:

HELMS, Jesse, 1921-

---

Senate Years of Service: 1973-2003
Party: Republican

HELMS, Jesse, a Senator from North Carolina; born in Monroe, Union County, N.C., October 18, 1921; educated in the public schools of Monroe, Wingate Junior College, and Wake Forest College; served in the United States Navy 1942-1945; city editor, Raleigh Times; administrative assistant to United States Senators Willis Smith 1951-1953 and Alton Lennon 1953; executive director, North Carolina Bankers Association 1953-1960; television and radio executive 1960-1972; member, Raleigh City Council 1957-1961; elected as a Republican to the United States Senate in 1972 and reelected in 1978, 1984, 1990 and again in 1996, and served from January 3, 1973 to January 3, 2003; not a candidate for reelection in 2002; chair, Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry (1981-87), Committee on Foreign Relations (1995-January 3, 2001; January 20, 2001-June 6, 2001).
Biographical Directory of the United States Congress
1774 to Present

Helms was a radio and TV exec in 1971.

[Hon]

"The fact that the meeting location was moved twice on short notice amid extreme security concerns makes Kerry's claims of forgetfulness even more incredible."

Kerry has a book party for Nicosia's book. He also wrote a very favorable review for it. The book was published in 2001.

You would have thought at the very least that this passage might have jogged his memory.

No, it's seems pretty clear that Kerry remembered it all too clearly. That's why he denied it the way he did. He tried a "limited hang-out" and it didn't work.

Even Nicosia, who is a major Kerry supporter, thinks that this is trouble for Kerry and that he needs to address it more openly.

[Mo1]

Folks, TPaine is another one of the trolls who have joined a campaign to try to drive me from Free Republic. I didn't know he was an owner or even a moderator.

Oh I wouldn't worry to much about tpaine .. if we can put up with him .. he can put up with us .. or at least try to :0)

Besides .. It's Jim's site and if he thinks there is a problem .. he'll let you/us know about

[Sabertooth]

The fact remains, you have failed to make the point that any government agency took this seriously enough to consider it to be a criminal act.

So, you're trusting the government's judgement?

[Hon]

As I was saying:

Kerry Still Backpedaling on Presence at 1971 Anti-War Meetings
By Marc Morano
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
March 24, 2004

Gerald Nicosia, author of the book Home to War: A History of the Vietnam Veterans' Movement and a Kerry supporter, told CNSNews.com last week that Kerry was being less than truthful about his anti-war activities.

"I am having some problems with the things he is saying right now, which are not matching up with accuracy," Nicosia said.

"I am in kind of an awkward position here. I am a Kerry supporter and I certainly don't want to do anything that hurts him. On the other hand, my number one allegiance is to truth. So I am going to go with where the facts are, and John is going to have to deal with that," Nicosia said.

Kerry hosted a reception in Nicosia's honor in 2001 when the book was released and praised it as an "important new book [that] ties together the many threads of a difficult period in our history every American should take the time to understand in its totality."

More recently, Nicosia offered some advice for Kerry: "The chickens are coming home to roost, and unfortunately he is starting to backtrack and I personally don't think backtracking is going to work because people are going to go at him and find the discrepancies," Nicosia said.

http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200403\NAT20040324a.html

[Hon]

Yes, as we've noted before, DuBose was mistaken in naming Helms. He might have been thinking of Stennis.

More likely he was just thinking about the upcoming years.

[Hon]

"The fact remains, you have failed to make the point that any government agency took this seriously enough to consider it to be a criminal act."

You've probably seen me make the opposite point several times, Sabertooth. On a thread just the other night I posted the US Code that would apply and I argued that it is probably unlikely that this event satisfied the critia for any kind of indictment since there is no record of any attempt to bring about the action.

In fact, you have been pursuing the line that there might have been some subsequent action that was perhaps fallout from this.

I don't mean to treat TP's post seriously, of course. I fully realize that he is just a troll. But it doesn't hurt to clarify the facts, since trolls live to confuse things.

[mass55th]

Randy Barnes needs to get his stories straight. He's a Kerry supporter, and on The Big Story with John Gibson last night, he said that the Phoenix Project (he wouldn't say the word assassination), was the idea of only one guy and that everyone else ignored him because they didn't think he was serious. So why take a vote?

[WorkingClassFilth]

^

[mass55th]

"But really isn't it at least the tinest bit troubling when two major figures like Paul o'neil and clarke start saying things that corroborate eachother?"

More than likely. I saw him on Fox News being interviewed by John Gibson. It was really funny, because he wouldn't admit that the Phoenix Project the VVAW was considering, was the same as the assassination (Phoenix) project used in Vietnam. Gibson had to force him to admit to it. He bad-mouthed Libscomb badly. I think he's just ticked that the reporter has done such a good job of uncovering information.

[Kryptonite]

So the "act in furtherance" of the conspiracy evidence was too weak to support a criminal indictment then, eh? Doesn't mean it can't be revealed now.....

[Hon]

Here is what I found and posted the other night on the subject of whether this would be subject to prosecution or not:

Kerry Friend Beau Dietl 'Shocked' by Assassination Plot ^
			Posted by Hon to Texasforever On News/Activism ^ 03/21/2004 1:52:38 AM EST #73 of 125 ^ Yeah, if they had pulled it off, it looks like this would have kicked in: 18 USC Sec. 351 01/26/98 TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 18 - CONGRESSIONAL, CABINET, AND SUPREME COURT ASSASSINATION, KIDNAPPING, AND ASSAULT HEADING Sec. 351. Congressional, Cabinet, and Supreme Court assassination, kidnapping, and assault; penalties STATUTE (a) Whoever kills any individual who is a Member of Congress or a Member-of-Congress-elect, a member of the executive branch of the Government who is the head, or a person nominated to be head during the pendency of such nomination, of a department listed in section 101 of title 5 or the second ranking official in such department, the Director (or a person nominated to be Director during the pendency of such nomination) or Deputy Director of Central Intelligence, a major Presidential or Vice Presidential candidate (as defined in section 3056 of this title), or a Justice of the United States, as defined in section 451 of title 28, or a person nominated to be a Justice of the United States, during the pendency of such nomination, shall be punished as provided by sections 1111 and 1112 of this title. (b) Whoever kidnaps any individual designated in subsection (a) of this section shall be punished (1) by imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or (2) by death or imprisonment for any term of years or for life, if death results to such individual. (c) Whoever attempts to kill or kidnap any individual designated in subsection (a) of this section shall be punished by imprisonment for any term of years or for life. (d) If two or more persons conspire to kill or kidnap any individual designated in subsection (a) of this section and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be punished (1) by imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or (2) by death or imprisonment for any term of years or for life, if death results to such individual. (e) Whoever assaults any person designated in subsection (a) of this section shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if the assault involved the use of a dangerous weapon, or personal injury results, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both. (f) If Federal investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction is asserted for a violation of this section, such assertion shall suspend the exercise of jurisdiction by a State or local authority, under any applicable State or local law, until Federal action is terminated. (g) Violations of this section shall be investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Assistance may be requested from any Federal, State, or local agency, including the Army, Navy, and Air Force, any statute, rule, or regulation to the contrary notwithstanding. (h) In a prosecution for an offense under this section the Government need not prove that the defendant knew that the victim of the offense was an individual protected by this section. (i) There is extraterritorial jurisdiction over the conduct prohibited by this section. Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies
Kerry Friend Beau Dietl 'Shocked' by Assassination Plot ^
			Posted by Hon to All On News/Activism ^ 03/21/2004 1:55:15 AM EST #75 of 125 ^ "d) If two or more persons conspire to kill or kidnap any individual designated in subsection (a) of this section and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be punished (1) by imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or (2) by death or imprisonment for any term of years or for life, if death results to such individual." This seems like the most relevant passage. And, mentioned by some earlier, since presumeably nobody acted upon this conspiracy, there will probably not be any prosecution. Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies

Just so everyone knows that Tpaine is a fantasist (to put it mildly).

[Hon]

"was the idea of only one guy and that everyone else ignored him because they didn't think he was serious. So why take a vote?"

And why would Nicosia attribute this to him?

"According to Barnes, everybody knew that the discussion in that hall "was grounds for criminal indictment of conspiracy."

No, Barnes was one of the first to place Kerry at the meeting. He later backtracked after two calls from Kerry's henchman, John Hurley. But of course he was right the first time, as the FBI files prove.

And he is now doing his best to diminish the story, since he is on the Kerry payroll.

Camil wasn't considered a kook. He went on after the KC meeting to fill the void that Kerry (and Hubbard) had left. He became one of the two top leaders of the VVAW.

He wasn't considered a crank at all. As Nicosia said, his proposal made the VVAW respect him all the more.

[Sabertooth]

You've probably seen me make the opposite point several times, Sabertooth. On a thread just the other night I posted the US Code that would apply and I argued that it is probably unlikely that this event satisfied the critia for any kind of indictment since there is no record of any attempt to bring about the action.

My operating theory is that the double move in Kansas City succeeded in preventing the FBI from learning of the Phoenix Project. Too many participants have said the discussion was serious to dismiss their accounts.

Also, keep in mind that 1972, when the file on Kerry was apparently closed, was an election year. On top of that we have the death of J. Edgar Hoover and the Watergate break-in. Wouldn't be surprising if some things fell through the cracks around that time.

BTW, as you know, the fact that Kerry's FBI file appeared to clear both him and the VVAW of violent intent is actually damning, rather than exculpatory. Since we know the Phoenix Project meeting took place, and since we know Kerry was there, that clean spot in the file means that he never reported the plot to authorities.

In fact, you have been pursuing the line that there might have been some subsequent action that was perhaps fallout from this.

Yep. One of the named targets, John Stennis, was shot in January of 1973, three days after the cease fire between the U.S. and North Vietnam went into effect.

Since I don't recall the perps being captured, and can't verify it yet on the 'net, one has to wonder.

[Hon]

I don't know how much longer I will be posting here if the moderators are going to allow the trolls to post outright libels about me with impugnity.

But just to respond to your poinst--remember we only have Kerry spokesflak David Wade's word about the FBI's file being closed on Kerry and saying what it did. At least I don't know anybody else who has seen the FBI files and who has put it the way he did.

AFAIK, Kerry was never much of a target for the FBI. It was always more a matter of going after the VVAW--which the FBI had been doing since 1967--under Johnson.

The FBI really had their hands full at the time. Again, AFAIK, they never tried to infiltrate the group until after the KC meeting. And maybe Camil's proposal was part of the reason why they did infiltrate it.

As you know, the FBI was able to stop Camil from violently disrupting the GOP convention, as he had planned to do. And maybe they stopped some other things that we don't know about. But Wade's remarks were far to generous insofar as he tried to absolve the VVAW.

[Sabertooth]

*But as a matter of fact, your own assertion might be open to question since Nicosia quoted the following from the FBI (which I believe is a government agency): On December 22, 1971, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover sent a classified memo to the director of the Jacksonville office, dealing specifically with Camil. It read in part: "Information developed to date regarding subject [Camil] indicates clearly subject is extremely dangerous and unstable individual whose activities must be neutralized at earliest possible time." Given that there was very little time for Camil do have done anything in the short time following the KC meeting, this FBI memo almost certainly indicates that they had gotten wind of this plot.

**And? -- What did Hoover do?

He up and died on May 2nd, 1972.

On June 17th, 1972, the FBI's attention was diverted to Watergate.

[tpaine]

Ya got me saber.. I confess..

My handlers in the great plot to discredit 'Hon' are in a panic. He's getting dangerously close to discovering who had the key to the wardroom refrigerator on Kerry's last ship.

[Kryptonite]

In fact, you have been pursuing the line that there might have been some subsequent action that was perhaps fallout from this.

------Yep. One of the named targets, John Stennis, was shot in January of 1973, three days after the cease fire between the U.S. and North Vietnam went into effect.

Since I don't recall the perps being captured, and can't verify it yet on the 'net, one has to wonder.--------------

I'm wondering enough to create my own sig, lame as they may be!