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Schrader 'Disturbed' by Gibson's Crucifixion Film (Last Temptation Screenwriter Pointing Fingers)
Reuters ^ | Tue, Mar 23, 2004 | Laith Abou-Ragheb

Posted on 03/23/2004 6:58:35 AM PST by presidio9

LONDON (Reuters) - The Hollywood screenwriter behind the last controversial film about Christ says Mel Gibson (news)'s new film on the crucifixion is violent and disturbing.

"It's a well-made movie but it's very violent and infused with a great sense of self-flagellation,", screenwriter for "The Last Temptation of Christ," told Reuters.

Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ," to be released with an adults-only certificate in Britain Friday, has been heavily criticized for its bloody portrayal of Christ's final hours.

A 56-year-old woman died of a heart attack in Wichita, Kan., last month while watching the film's climactic crucifixion scene.

Some Jewish groups even branded the film anti-Semitic, arguing that it revives old accusations that Jews bear collective responsibility for killing the Son of God.

Schrader's "Last Temptation," released in 1988 and directed by Martin Scorsese, was attacked by Christian groups for a brief scene in which Jesus is seen having sex with Mary Magdalene.

But the screenwriter, who penned such cinematic classics as "Taxi Driver" and "Raging Bull," distanced his film from Gibson's.

"They are two totally different movies," he said after giving a talk in London about his acclaimed career.

"My film was essentially a humanist story about the struggle to find God in which Christ is used as a metaphor," said Schrader, who was raised in a strict Calvinist household and studied theology.

"But screenings of Gibson's film have been more like evangelical meetings. The audience comes into the film with such a powerful belief system that they think they have a religious experience. It's quite an interesting and disturbing phenomenon," he said.

Gibson's film has been a huge success in the United States. According to studio estimates, it has earned more than $250 million since its Feb. 25 U.S. opening.

Shrader said the film would never have been made without the backing of a big star like Gibson.

"This is not the sort of film Hollywood likes," he said. "But Gibson was uniquely positioned to make it and he successfully tapped into a ready-made audience made up of conservative religious groups."

Gibson, who reportedly spent $25 million of his own money on the film, is a follower of a small traditionalist Catholic church that denies the legitimacy of Vatican decrees made since the mid-1960s.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: antichristian; boycott; boycotthollywood; catholiclist; christianbashing; christianity; christians; heartattack; hollywoodelite; hollywoodleft; jesuschrist; lasttemptation; mediabias; religion; religiousintolerance; thepassion
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To: TopQuark
I didn't get baptized or start going to church again in order to worship an archetype. THAT idea is disturbing to me. Why wouldn't I just stay home and read a novel instead, if that's all I believed.

Yet there are people in the congregations and also in front of them, who clearly don't believe at all, yet there they are anyway. I'm still trying to get a handle on that.

61 posted on 03/23/2004 10:18:04 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Green Knight
>That's a ridiculous analogy. It certainly isn't clever enough for it to be posted on half-a-dozen different threads, so can you please cut it out, already?

It is in two threads,
and, frankly, if it is bad,
the only bad thing

is that comparing
the film business to hookers
is hitting too hard

at the prostitutes ...
Sorry, but I stand firmly
behind this comment.

62 posted on 03/23/2004 10:41:03 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: presidio9; Alamo-Girl; marron; unspun; logos; xzins; restornu
The audience comes into the film with such a powerful belief system that they think they have a religious experience.

What a fascinating thing to say! Seems kind of like a stock fixture of the Left "progressive" imagination to suggest that some people are so deluded or dumb that they can't even tell whether they've really had an "experience."

Seems to me that an "experience" is quite a factual thing because it is a lived thing, not something that just happens in one's (self-deluded) imagination, something impotent to actualize in "reality"....

If you feel it -- if your total body and your emotions are resonating to something such that physical changes are taking place -- then that something is likely to be "real" enough....

For this dude, there is no genuine religious experience here -- for the simple reason that there is no such thing as a "genuine religious experience" in principle: Such are only in the deluded imaginations of backward, unprogressive, superstitious Christians....

But of course, an experience of this sort is unimaginable to this guy; ergo, such cannot possibly happen in the "real world." (I.e., he makes himself the measure of what is possible.)

What is wrong with people like this? Folks like this so often appear truly demented to me, not to mention relentlessly uncharitable (and baselessly judgmental) towards their fellow human beings. They do not seem to live in the same world as the rest of us...or want to.

Maybe they are just firmly planted in a relentless denial of Reality.

Which would call for our pity, compassion. Still, I do get a little sick of the manifest arrogance of this attitude so common in the ranks of our self-appointed cultural elites.

Thanks for the post, presidio9.

63 posted on 03/23/2004 11:00:28 AM PST by betty boop (The purpose of marriage is to civilize men, protect women, and raise children. -- William Bennett)
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To: Liz
>The Passion is still breaking box-office records domestically and globally,
>its movie memorabilia is flying off the shelves, the DVD will break records and
>so will the book about the movie.

Further, I'm hoping for even more archeologicaly accurate and lyrical remakes. A variety of sterotypical motifs could be improved on. For example, the trio of Mary, Mary Magdelene and John got a lot of screen time, but limited development. John just stood around and looked pensive. Based on the letters he later wrote, the experience was something that brought him to a crisis of faith. None of that carried through in the movie.

There is more to be done.
64 posted on 03/23/2004 11:13:06 AM PST by nonomous
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for your excellent analysis!

But of course, an experience of this sort is unimaginable to this guy; ergo, such cannot possibly happen in the "real world." (I.e., he makes himself the measure of what is possible.) What is wrong with people like this?

Blind... deaf ...

65 posted on 03/23/2004 11:37:18 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: nonomous
Sounds good to me.

Also, remember that Mel said he purposefully omitted some of the message hoping viewers would go out on their own to find the answers.

66 posted on 03/23/2004 11:47:42 AM PST by Liz
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To: nonomous
>For example, the trio of Mary, Mary Magdelene and John got a lot of screen time, but limited development. John just stood around and looked pensive. Based on the letters he later wrote, the experience was something that brought him to a crisis of faith. None of that carried through in the movie.

See the movie again and watch John and Mary Magdelene before and during the crucifixion. There's alot going on there, very subtle acting. At the cross, John and Mary both get a revelation about who Jesus is and his mission.

Mary Magdelene sees that when the Romans turned over the cross, Jesus held himself off the ground in order to keep the prophecy true which says the Messiah will not have any broken bones. Mary realizes that Jesus has direct control over the forces of nature. When Jesus is lifted up she covers her head, just as she would in the courtyard of the Temple before the Holy of Holies which is the presence of God. Mary realizes that Jesus is God just as he told Caiaphas.

On the way to the crucifixion, John looks sad, angry and disappointed in this apparently tragic and meaningless end. Then John flashes back to the Last Supper where Jesus said "This is my body, broken for you. This is my blood, poured out for you." John looks at Jesus on the cross and his eyes fill with tears of joy and he understands what Jesus' mission was and the purpose of the cricifixion.

67 posted on 03/23/2004 12:30:57 PM PST by Dialup Llama
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To: presidio9
Here's my question for Paul Schrader if you think The Passion can be a "disturbing" influence on people, do you feel any moral responsibility for writing Taxi Driver, a movie which John Hinckley said inspired him to try to assassinate Ronald Reagan?
68 posted on 03/23/2004 2:10:31 PM PST by NYCVirago
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To: betty boop
But of course, an experience of this sort is unimaginable to this guy; ergo, such cannot possibly happen in the "real world." (I.e., he makes himself the measure of what is possible.)

C.S. Lewis on reality (paraphrased): "Everything is real. The question is, are they real snakes or real delerium tremons?"

Or as they say down home, "The silly boy picked up a snake to kill a stick."

Schrader is just like most of the rest of us - he sees what he is, but in his case reality is illusion and illusion is reality.

69 posted on 03/23/2004 5:19:42 PM PST by logos
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To: presidio9
A 56-year-old woman died of a heart attack in Wichita, Kan., last month while watching the film's climactic crucifixion scene.
____

Why is this constantly brought up? This woman probably would have had a heart attack at the exact same time were she home cooking dinner. It was her time.
I sat through 2 viewings now of the The Passion and I'm 7 months pregnant with hypertension(managed with meds). I got emotional, but no more so than I do dealing with the rages of my autistic son.
70 posted on 03/23/2004 5:41:09 PM PST by cupcakes
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To: Dialup Llama
You comments reinforce my opinion that you don't have to be Catholic to enjoy this movie, but people who are not familiar with Catholic teachings and traditions (a group that include most film critics) can not possibly understand what an excellent film this is in its own right. I saw several critics refer to the scene where the cross turns over as specifically as a flaw in this film. One suggested that it was such a problem that it would be reshot for the DVD version.
71 posted on 03/24/2004 7:31:35 AM PST by presidio9 (the left is turning antisemitism into the new homophobia)
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To: logos; Alamo-Girl; marron; unspun; xzins; restornu; Ronzo
C.S. Lewis on reality (paraphrased): "Everything is real. The question is, are they real snakes or real delerium tremons?"

Exactly, logos. Voegelin makes much the same point. Wish I could quote him here (it's a very amusing insight), but the source is at home.

The jist of what he said is that even the visions of a psychopath are real enough, in that they enter into empirical reality.

But to the extent that they are "deformations of reality," and thus deformations of the truth of reality, they enter into the world as sources of disorder: What starts out as personal disorder finally, ineluctibly translates as a source of social disorder.

I think this may be the case with Schrader. As you note (fairly I think), "in his case reality is illusion and illusion is reality."

72 posted on 03/24/2004 7:53:19 AM PST by betty boop (The purpose of marriage is to civilize men, protect women, and raise children. -- William Bennett)
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To: betty boop
Thanks for the ping betty...

But to the extent that they are "deformations of reality," and thus deformations of the truth of reality, they enter into the world as sources of disorder: What starts out as personal disorder finally, ineluctibly translates as a source of social disorder.

Hitler. Stalin. Pol Pot. Most of Hollywood. Clinton. Etc.

73 posted on 03/24/2004 2:12:11 PM PST by Ronzo (GOD alone is enough.)
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To: TopQuark; cvq3842; betty boop; logos; Alamo-Girl; Taliesan
TopQuaurk:

Your post:

Every time "the church" and "the synagogue" took a step back, it created vacuum. It is into this vacuum that the idealism you referred to stepped in. This utopian ideal took different forms but was always the same at the foundation: it replaced G-d in heaven with man-god.

Reminded me of the following "diagnosis" of the problem from Jacob Needleman in his book "The New Religions." The context for this quote is an essay on why Eastern Religions were becoming so popular in this country during the 60's & 70's:

Various rituals, prayers, services and the like no longer function as part of the mechanics of the religious process, but mainly as an emotional 'lift', something to help us return to our ordinary life feeling better, psychologically more secure. In this way they help to preserve the quality of the life we lead, rather than transform it.

This general forgetting of the instrumental nature of religious forms is in a way really quite bizarre. It is as though millions of people suffering from a painful disease were to gather together to hear someone read a textbook of medical treatment in which the means necessary to cure their disease were carefully spelled out. It is as through they were all to take great comfort in that book and in what they heard, going through their lives knowing that their disease could be cured, quoting passages to their friends, preaching the wonders of this great book, and returning to their congregation from time to time to hear more of the inspiring diagnosis and treatment read to them. Meanwhile, of course, the disease worsens and they eventually die of it, simling in grateful hope as on their deathbed someone reads to them yet another passage from the text. Perhaps for some, a troubling thought crosses their minds as their eyes close for the last time: 'Haven't I forgotten something? Something important? Haven't I forgotten actually to undergo treatment?'

It is impossible to say when this forgetting of the fundamentally instrumental nature of the religious forms began in the West. But obviously the general clergy--priests, ministers, and rabbis--forgot it quite as much as their congregations. No wonder the young became disillusioned with religion. They heard exhortations, commandments, prescriptions by the basketful, but nobody was telling them how to be able to follow them. I do not say they formulated it this way to themselves, but they--and not only they--saw the absurd discrepancy between the ideal preached in their churches and the actual behavior of men, behaviour which seemed reinforced rather than seriously challenged by religion.

The Eastern teachings which are attracting so much interest in this country have by and large preserved this instrumental aspect of their religion. That is why they come to us with such things as meditation techniques, physical and psychological excercises, and why they tend to emphasize the necessity of a guru or master. It takes no great research to discover that practical psychological methods were always a central part of Christianity and Judaism, and that they still exist in monastic settings, or, for example, amoung certain communities such as as the Jewish Hasidim. The point is that this aspect of religion has been forgotten by almost all other Westerners.

It was only because it was forgotten that Judaism and Christianity were so shaken by psychoanalysis and various other movements in modern psychology. Compared, for example, to the early Christian diagnosis of the inner human condition, Freud's 'expose' of the nature of human motivation is a very weak tea indeed. For one thing--and this is the very least of it--he retained his trust in the power of reason, his own, and observation, also his own, to arrive at the truth about human psychology. But for the early Christians, and for several of the most interesting new teachings, the power of thinking and observing clearly is a quality of a higher state of consciousness, and not something that man is able to rely on without work in a spiritual discipline.

The main point here, however, is that because of the instrumental nature of religous forms was forgotten, the science of psychology suddenly appeared as something new. Such an absurdity could only arise on the basis of a total misunderstanding or ignorance of the history of Judaeo-Christian thought and practice. One need only glance again at the writings of Augustine, Eckhardt, the Eastern Orthodox Fathers, or the great rabbis to confirm this point.

-- Jacob Needleman, The New Religions. New York: Crossroad, 1987 (1970), 17-18


74 posted on 03/24/2004 2:31:07 PM PST by Ronzo (GOD alone is enough.)
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To: presidio9
"It's a well-made movie but it's very violent and infused with a great sense of self-flagellation,", screenwriter for "The Last Temptation of Christ," told Reuters. As soon as I read that statement, I knew I was going to be in for a long, tedious rant...

I must have completely missed the "self-flagellation" in the movie, but I do remember a scene where ROMAN SOLDIERS whipped Christ --it's flagellation, but hardly self-flagellation.

There is no possible way anyone with the least trace of intellectual honesty can even make a claim like that. The statement was absurd before he even spoke it.

75 posted on 03/24/2004 2:40:13 PM PST by Ronzo (GOD alone is enough.)
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To: betty boop; logos; Alamo-Girl; marron; xzins; restornu; Ronzo
Wish I had more time....

BTW I concur: I'd be quite worried if anyone who sees this movie isn't disturbed.

Words and meanings such as 'sword,' 'whirlwind,' 'brake/crush,' 'woe,' and the tribulation (shaking) of the earth sufficient to make crooked places straight and rough places plain, are used in Scripture. God is not mocked.
76 posted on 03/24/2004 3:26:40 PM PST by unspun (The uncontextualized life is not worth living. | I'm not "Unspun w/ AnnaZ" but I appreciate.)
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To: Ronzo; Alamo-Girl; unspun; logos; marron; restornu; xzins
Hitler. Stalin. Pol Pot. Most of Hollywood. Clinton. Etc.

You got it, Ronzo! Today these "sources" are legion....

I finally saw The Passion of the Christ last night -- a profoundly moving film and an astonishing artistic achievement. I found myself seeing the unfolding action through the Blessed Mother's eyes (Maia Morgenstern portrayed Mary's profound suffering and personal courage to "see it through to the end" with her Son superbly, brilliantly. My tears flowed with hers....)

I was fascinated by Gibson's portrayal of Satan. I need to see the film again (perhaps several times) to confirm this for myself, but it seemed to me that Satan was visible only to Jesus; except for once, he/she/it was visible to Mary.

I say that Satan was unseen by the many because when he/she/it moved through the crowds, no one seemed to acknowledge or react to his/her/its presence. It's as if Satan were "invisible." Not even Judas gave any sign of seeing Satan directly, only through "proxies" -- the demon-like children who harried, jeered at, and chased him, culminating in his suicide.

On one occasion, it seemed to me that Satan was visible to Mary.

When Jesus bore the cross to Golgotha, with Mary alongside, Satan appeared with a "babe in arms," apparently intently looking at Mary. It was a monstrous parody, a jeering caricature of the Madonna with the child Jesus in her arms.

Of course, that "babe in arms" was no child, which was obvious from its total lack of the quality of innocence -- that "babe" was a hate-filled demon, sharing Satan's delight in the suffering and grief of the Holy mother and her Son. The "babe" was an anti-Jesus, and Satan an anti-Mary in that scene. It was a gratuitous, spiteful, evil parody of love and life -- and of a mother's incalculable sorrow and grief over the suffering of her only Son, borne with immense courage and grace.

It seems to me that people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and the others you name have the same contempt for all that is good and holy. They are the implacable enemies of the Holy Spirit, divine and human. In this, truly they are satanic figures.

77 posted on 03/25/2004 11:42:20 AM PST by betty boop (The purpose of marriage is to civilize men, protect women, and raise children. -- William Bennett)
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To: Ronzo
Interesting!
78 posted on 03/26/2004 7:59:06 AM PST by cvq3842
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To: presidio9
Wow. Lots of hate and bias in thin piece. What is is about (the world towards) Jesus that brings such hate out of the left? Even the writer of the script? Sheesh!
79 posted on 03/26/2004 8:02:26 AM PST by Libertina (Praises for Your day, Lord!)
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To: Ronzo
In this way they help to preserve the quality of the life we lead, rather than transform it.

So true, Ronzo. Yet God asks us for a change of heart, a transformation of our life....

80 posted on 03/26/2004 10:10:17 AM PST by betty boop (The purpose of marriage is to civilize men, protect women, and raise children. -- William Bennett)
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