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Withholding Identity From a Law Officer: Your Right or Not?
Associated Press ^ | March 23, 2004 | Gina Holland

Posted on 03/23/2004 6:10:30 AM PST by wallcrawlr

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Do you have to tell the police your name? Depending on how the Supreme Court rules in a case before it Monday, the answer could be the difference between arrest and freedom.

The court took up the appeal of a Nevada cattle rancher who was arrested after he told a deputy that he had done nothing wrong and didn't have to reveal his name or show an ID during an encounter on a rural highway four years ago. Larry Hiibel, 59, was prosecuted under a state statute that requires people to identify themselves to the police if stopped "under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime."

The case will clarify police powers in the post-Sept. 11 era, determining whether officials can demand to see identification whenever they deem it necessary.

Nevada Senior Deputy Attorney General Conrad Hafen told the justices that "identifying yourself is a neutral act" that helps police in their investigations and doesn't -- by itself -- incriminate anyone.

But if that is allowed, several justices asked, what will be next? A fingerprint? Telephone number? E-mail address?

"The government could require name tags, color codes," Hiibel's attorney, Robert Dolan, told the court.

At the heart of the case is an intersection of the Fourth Amendment, which protects people from unreasonable searches, and the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. Hiibel claims both of those rights were violated.

Justice Antonin Scalia, however, expressed doubts. He said officers faced with suspicious people need authority to get the facts. "I cannot imagine any responsible citizen would have objected to giving the name," Scalia said.

Justices are revisiting their 1968 decision that said police may briefly detain someone on reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, without the stronger standard of probable cause, to get more information. Nevada argues that during such brief detentions, known as Terry stops after the 1968 ruling, people should be required to answer questions about their identities.

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor pointed out that the court has never given police the authority to demand someone's identification without probable cause that they have done something wrong. But she also acknowledged that police might want to run someone's name through computers to check for a criminal history.

Hiibel was approached by a deputy in May 2000 next to a pickup truck parked off a road near Winnemucca, Nev. The officer, called to the scene because of a complaint about arguing between Hiibel and his daughter, asked Hiibel 11 times for his identification or his name. He refused, at one point saying, "If you've got something, take me to jail."

Hiibel was convicted of a misdemeanor charge of resisting arrest. He was fined $250.

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News
KEYWORDS: hiibel; id; privacy; scotus; yourpapersplease
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To: spunkets
They should also jail him until he IDs himself

Why? Are we free men or vassals of the State?

321 posted on 03/23/2004 1:32:36 PM PST by Sweet Land
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To: spunkets
They should also jail him until he IDs himself, or he dies.

Yeah, and let's see the permit for that smoke pole. Don't have it handy? In jail for you until you find it!

322 posted on 03/23/2004 1:34:38 PM PST by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending)
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To: Sweet Land
Read it again and try to comprehend it.

"a person being detained because of an articulable suspicion of criminal activity may refuse to identify himself."

323 posted on 03/23/2004 1:35:14 PM PST by spunkets
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To: green iguana
From the very beginning of the tape (when the officer first pulls up) it appears his daughter is in the driver's seat.

From Mr. Hiibel's brief it is stated that she was on the passenger's side.

324 posted on 03/23/2004 1:44:06 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: eno_
YOU are the ONLY one blithering this line. Not even Hiibel is agreeing with you on this one.
325 posted on 03/23/2004 1:45:37 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: spunkets
Read it again and try to comprehend it.

"a person being detained because of an articulable suspicion of criminal activity may refuse to identify himself."

Don't make a fool of yourself. In the context of a legal ruling, "a person may do X" means "a person may do X without being legally punished."

326 posted on 03/23/2004 1:47:32 PM PST by Sweet Land
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To: eno_
You are full of it. No source! But from Mr. Hiibel's brief -

RELEVANT FACTUAL AND PROCEDURAL BACKGROUND

In response to a call from police dispatch ....

327 posted on 03/23/2004 1:54:35 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: eno_
All very strange, unless, of course, the call was never made and the cop who claimed to be investigating a report of domestic violence lied and made it up to support his buddy in coercing a response out of the man who refused to identify himself.

All very strange, unless, of course, the call was never made and the cop who claimed to be investigating a report of domestic violence lied and made it up to support his buddy in coercing a response out of the man who refused to identify himself. you are just making this all up.

328 posted on 03/23/2004 2:08:42 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: eno_
And, of course, no recording of the call.

And of course no source for your claims therefor your claims are imaginary.

329 posted on 03/23/2004 2:09:46 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: eno_
If the police recieve a call of a man hitting a female, the police are going to respond even if the caller refuses to leave a name or number. Given that information, it makes no sense that the cops first try and verify the call before actually responding to it.
330 posted on 03/23/2004 2:10:54 PM PST by Arpege92 (Ketchup and coffee is like Kerry and the truth....neither go well together. - rickmichaels)
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To: Sweet Land
"In the context of a legal ruling, "a person may do X" means "a person may do X without being legally punished."

Nonsense. Particular conditions were attached to the waiving of sanctions for refusal to ID. It puts the burden on the police to obtain the persons ID some other way. If they are unable to ID the suspect any other way they should keep him until they are sure he is someone. If they can't determine he is someone, they should declare him fruit and toss him in the recycling bin for composting.

331 posted on 03/23/2004 2:11:34 PM PST by spunkets
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Here it would have been Obstructing Official Business. Or Domestic Violence or Disorderly Conduct, Persisting. Whatever I felt like at the moment.

And cops wonder why people don't like them. Don't come crying here for sympathy the next time a cop takes a bullet.

332 posted on 03/23/2004 2:18:52 PM PST by Modernman (Chthulu for President! Why Vote for the Lesser Evil?)
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To: spunkets
Particular conditions were attached to the waiving of sanctions for refusal to ID.

What "conditions"?

333 posted on 03/23/2004 2:20:14 PM PST by Sweet Land
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To: Sweet Land
"What "conditions"?"

"articulable suspicion of criminal activity"

334 posted on 03/23/2004 2:35:07 PM PST by spunkets
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To: Sweet Land
re: "Not everything people have to hide is criminal."

Hey! The ONLY thing being discussed in this case is whether, when upon PUBLIC property, whether or not you should be required to give an officer your NAME, upon request!

Or did you miss that point?
335 posted on 03/23/2004 2:40:29 PM PST by RonHolzwarth
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To: Landru
It's the screwed-up, hyper-vilolent, increasingly criminal and hellbent, mindlessly belligerent public. That's what has changed.

Violent crime in every category has been steadily declining over the last 20 years. Society is not getting any more dangerous, so there is no reason for cops to get more belligerent towards the people who pay their salaries.

336 posted on 03/23/2004 2:41:39 PM PST by Modernman (Chthulu for President! Why Vote for the Lesser Evil?)
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To: RonHolzwarth
Hey! The ONLY thing being discussed in this case is whether, when upon PUBLIC property, whether or not you should be required to give an officer your NAME, upon request! Or did you miss that point?

I think you should go back and read the writs.

337 posted on 03/23/2004 2:44:51 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: Modernman
Society is not getting any more dangerous

The United States Crime Index Rates Per 100,000 Inhabitants went from 1,887.2 in 1960 to 5,897.8 in 1996. By 1996 the crime rate was 313% the 1960 crime rate. In 1996 your risk of being a victim of a crime in the United States was 5.079%, and of a violent crime 0.634%. In 1960 these rates were 1.89% of being a victim of a crime and 0.161% of becoming victim of a violent crime.

338 posted on 03/23/2004 2:48:49 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA
Hmmm.... According to the DOJ- Bureau of Justice Statistics, the murder rate as of 2000 was 5.5/100,000, which is a level comparable to the 1960's. Violent crime rates are at the lowest level since 1973 (the first year statistics were compiled)as are property crime rates.
339 posted on 03/23/2004 3:00:35 PM PST by Modernman (Chthulu for President! Why Vote for the Lesser Evil?)
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To: cinFLA
How's your goosestep?
340 posted on 03/23/2004 3:00:45 PM PST by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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