The Wana Campaign -- Maps, Place Names and Participants An FReference Thread

See post 20..

Thanks!

Way to go, Dog, great map! I going to put it up on this thread.

I've spent several hours analyzing your map and going back over the GEONames database and here are my conclusions.

MAP BENEFITS:
1. It provides BADLY NEEDED topographic information on the Wana area.
2. It provides a PRECISE "Minimum Bounding Rectangle" for the battle area, so that I can track down the other place names from the GEONames database.
3. The resolution is great and is about 8.5 km (5.3 miles) to the screen inch.
4. It covers other important areas, like the U.S. Shkin forward firebase on the Afghani border and nearly as far north as our Lwara forward firebase.
5. I've checked the map's coordinate system and it quite accurate when compared to the GEONames database.

MAP DRAWBACKS:
1. The collection of black dots SW of Wana are NOT part of the original Tactical Pilotage Chart. GlobalSecurity.com probably added them, after the fact, based on their own intelligence sources. Note: This map was produced by the Defense Mapping Agency, now the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, in 1992. The NGA is the same agency that provides the online GEONames database that I quote from so often.
2. None of the black dots are identified as to place name.
3. There are fewer place names identified on the map than on the MultiMap.com maps.

What follows is the results of my search of the GEONames database based upon the Minimum Bounding Rectangle from the Tactical Pilotage Chart.

PLEASE REFER TO THE FOLLOWING DATA WHEN TRYING TO LOCATE PLACE NAMES IN THE WANA BATTLE ZONE.

I'll start with a list of some of the place names we've been struggling to find locations for (that are in this battle area)

Azam Warsak
Shin Warzak
Kaloosha
Gangikhel
Kaga Panga
Palwasha
Zarian Noor (Zeri Noor)
Zarangadai
Shahalam hill
Mula Khan Saraye
Chaghmali area

Now for the complete GEONames results for that Minimum Bounding Rectangle taken from the TCP map that Dog linked us to.

Geonames Search Results for:
Minimum Bounding Rectangle (MBR) of: 32°02'N to 32°18'N by 69°20'E to 69°32'E
The MBR is 16 min. of arc high (29.6 km) by 12 min. of arc wide (18.8 km)

Place names below in bold red are matches to previously identified places.

---------------------------------------------

Total Number of Names in query results: 146

---------------------------------------------

Note: Diacritics have been removed from names.

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Gangi Khel

Popultated Place

32° 17' 05" N 069° 31' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Shin Warsak Sat

Popultated Place

32° 16' 20" N 069° 31' 15" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Wucha Kasa

Popultated Place

32° 16' 10" N 069° 30' 55" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kurezai

Popultated Place

32° 16' 15" N 069° 31' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Ghwaya Kho
Variant Name: Ghwa Kho

Popultated Place

32° 15' 20" N 069° 31' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Changai

Popultated Place

32° 15' 40" N 069° 31' 35" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kundi Kasa

Popultated Place

32° 15' 25" N 069° 31' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zalli Khel
Generic Name: Khel

Tribal Area

32° 15' 15" N 069° 31' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kuti Kili

Popultated Place

32° 15' 25" N 069° 31' 20" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Shin Warsak

Locality

32° 15' 50" N 069° 30' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zalai Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Stream

32° 17' 59" N 069° 21' 41" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Narai Nar
Generic Name: Nar

Stream

32° 17' 32" N 069° 26' 41" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Prekarie

Stream

32° 17' 29" N 069° 27' 33" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kalosha

Stream

32° 17' 15" N 069° 27' 23" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Sraghara Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Stream

32° 17' 30" N 069° 26' 43" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kibari Wuchoba

Popultated Place

32° 17' 20" N 069° 22' 55" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zalai

Locality

32° 17' 30" N 069° 21' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zalai Sar
Generic Name: Sar

Peak

32° 17' 40" N 069° 20' 45" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Shina Lakai Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Stream

32° 17' 32" N 069° 22' 42" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Bhomai

Locality

32° 16' 35" N 069° 20' 10" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Darbalai Warsak

Mountain

32° 16' 50" N 069° 23' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Shrawana Nar
Generic Name: Nar

Stream

32° 17' 31" N 069° 26' 02" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Parshai Narai
Generic Name: Narai

Pass

32° 16' 30" N 069° 26' 20" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Dhana

Intermittent Stream

32° 16' 05" N 069° 30' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Mukhai Faqir

Popultated Place

32° 15' 30" N 069° 29' 05" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Karez

Watercourse

32° 15' 40" N 069° 28' 30" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kibarai

Popultated Place

32° 15' 20" N 069° 28' 25" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zer Gwazha

Stream

32° 15' 32" N 069° 27' 39" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Isora Narai
Generic Name: Narai

Pass

32° 15' 35" N 069° 26' 25" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kazha Punga

Mountain

32° 16' 10" N 069° 26' 30" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kazha Punga

Locality

32° 15' 40" N 069° 25' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Tarakai

Mountain

32° 15' 45" N 069° 22' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Wuchobi Lakai Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Stream

32° 16' 15" N 069° 21' 41" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Wuchobi Lakai

Mountain

32° 15' 40" N 069° 20' 35" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Soleyman Kheyl (AF)
Variant Name: Sulaiman Khel (AF)
Variant Name: Suleman Khel (?)
Variant Name: Soleyman Khel (PK)

Tribal Area

32° 02' 06" N 069° 21' 50" E AF00

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Torzowa Karbona
Variant Name: Torzowa

Mountains

32° 06' 09" N 069° 21' 32" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kuchmina

Mountain

32° 02' 00" N 069° 32' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kibarai Algad
Generic Name: Algad
Variant Name: Kibari Algad

Stream

32° 15' 01" N 069° 28' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Khan Kot

Popultated Place

32° 03' 33" N 069° 20' 04" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Jindai

Popultated Place

32° 16' 00" N 069° 31' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zarmelan

Locality

32° 03' 05" N 069° 21' 53" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Ghilzai

Tribal Area

32° 03' 37" N 069° 21' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Mizari Tor

Hill

32° 03' 01" N 069° 22' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Dwa Sarak

Hill

32° 03' 10" N 069° 25' 36" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Naghar Chau

Well

32° 02' 02" N 069° 27' 49" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Shui Gwazh

Intermittent Stream

32° 02' 53" N 069° 27' 17" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Toti China
Generic Name: China

Intermittent Stream

32° 03' 02" N 069° 29' 28" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Shahbari

Stream

32° 03' 49" N 069° 28' 46" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Torband Khel Kut

Intermittent Stream

32° 02' 40" N 069° 24' 20" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Tor Warsak

Hill

32° 04' 50" N 069° 22' 49" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Sher Ali Khan

Ruin

32° 04' 10" N 069° 20' 16" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Wastane Nowa

Intermittent Stream

32° 04' 55" N 069° 26' 05" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Spin Jama`at

Intermittent Stream

32° 05' 55" N 069° 27' 11" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Srawani Chauan

Well

32° 04' 43" N 069° 23' 37" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Azamiwarsakai
[Note: This is Azam Warsak]

Hill

32° 05' 35" N 069° 24' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Shingarai

Intermittent Stream

32° 06' 03" N 069° 24' 26" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Parshahi Nowa

Intermittent Stream

32° 06' 06" N 069° 25' 56" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Keragarai

Intermittent Stream

32° 06' 30" N 069° 26' 13" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Parshahi Chau

Well

32° 07' 10" N 069° 27' 26" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Katang Gwazha

Intermittent Stream

32° 08' 29" N 069° 24' 15" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Torzowa Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Intermittent Stream

32° 07' 13" N 069° 23' 39" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Ranga Nowa

Intermittent Stream

32° 08' 35" N 069° 24' 11" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Lakashavi Narai
Generic Name: Narai

Pass

32° 05' 05" N 069° 22' 39" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Machal Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Intermittent Stream

32° 06' 53" N 069° 27' 28" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Chinikhwa Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Intermittent Stream

32° 09' 22" N 069° 29' 15" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Wucha Nowa

Intermittent Stream

32° 07' 21" N 069° 26' 39" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Machal Narai
Generic Name: Narai

Pass

32° 08' 08" N 069° 27' 55" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Machal Bika

Mountain

32° 08' 12" N 069° 28' 46" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Karbona Range

Mountains

32° 11' 22" N 069° 21' 55" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Gurlima

Intermittent Stream

32° 07' 09" N 069° 20' 05" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Ghwareroba

Intermittent Stream

32° 06' 53" N 069° 20' 25" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Srawam Bagh

Intermittent Stream

32° 09' 07" N 069° 25' 23" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Shina Bika Ghar
Generic Name: Ghar

Mountain

32° 10' 26" N 069° 29' 35" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Chinikhwa

Locality

32° 10' 48" N 069° 28' 46" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Faqir Chau

Well

32° 10' 28" N 069° 25' 43" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Bogh Chauan

Well

32° 10' 39" N 069° 23' 51" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Imar Tizha

Well

32° 10' 37" N 069° 21' 08" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Nandir Chau

Well

32° 10' 59" N 069° 22' 59" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Ghundak Nowa

Intermittent Stream

32° 10' 48" N 069° 22' 47" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Watiye Pal

Intermittent Stream

32° 11' 21" N 069° 23' 42" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Wucha Nowa

Intermittent Stream

32° 11' 32" N 069° 23' 24" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Bakuli Nowa

Intermittent Stream

32° 12' 07" N 069° 22' 47" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Karbona

Mountain

32° 12' 55" N 069° 20' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Sarki Chau

Well

32° 13' 09" N 069° 21' 31" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Wuchobi Lakai

Mountain

32° 13' 56" N 069° 20' 41" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Inzar Pal

Intermittent Stream

32° 13' 32" N 069° 24' 23" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Katana Nowa

Intermittent Stream

32° 12' 18" N 069° 24' 57" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Ibagh Pal

Intermittent Stream

32° 13' 54" N 069° 24' 30" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Tor Zawar

Intermittent Stream

32° 11' 09" N 069° 29' 46" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Srawam Bagh

Locality

32° 09' 08" N 069° 28' 52" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Sirk Khel

Tribal Area

32° 12' 00" N 069° 24' 48" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Isakai Chau

Well

32° 14' 43" N 069° 23' 10" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Zera Gwazha

Mountain

32° 12' 39" N 069° 29' 41" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Kalati

Locality

32° 14' 34" N 069° 29' 33" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Zir Gwazha

Tribal Area

32° 13' 16" N 069° 27' 45" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Marghai Chau

Well

32° 13' 25" N 069° 26' 15" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Gurgura

Well

32° 13' 52" N 069° 26' 33" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Zera Gwazha Chau

Well

32° 12' 59" N 069° 26' 08" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Mulla Sahib Chau

Well

32° 14' 06" N 069° 25' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Nambotai Chau

Well

32° 14' 08" N 069° 25' 38" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Wuchobi Narai
Generic Name: Narai

Pass

32° 13' 59" N 069° 23' 13" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Nazar Chau

Well

32° 13' 55" N 069° 23' 13" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Bagar Chau

Well

32° 14' 07" N 069° 21' 57" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Parshahi Chau

Well

32° 14' 07" N 069° 22' 44" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Spinkai Chau

Well

32° 14' 53" N 069° 22' 17" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Zerakai

Mountain

32° 15' 03" N 069° 26' 38" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Inus

Popultated Place

32° 16' 02" N 069° 28' 39" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Mukhai Faqir

Popultated Place

32° 15' 37" N 069° 29' 19" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Kazha Punga

Ridge(s)

32° 16' 33" N 069° 26' 28" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Kibari

Popultated Place

32° 17' 34" N 069° 22' 47" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Wuchoba

Popultated Place

32° 17' 33" N 069° 23' 31" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kamkai Sraghara Algad
Generic Name: Algad
Variant Name: Kamkai Sraghura Algad

Intermittent Stream

32° 17' 31" N 069° 22' 42" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Darbalai Warsak

Escarpment

32° 17' 02" N 069° 23' 07" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Guldane Ghundai
Generic Name: Ghundai

Hill

32° 16' 59" N 069° 24' 01" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Wazir

Area

32° 16' 54" N 069° 22' 43" E

---------------------------------------------
Unverified Name: Zalai Sar

Triangulation Station

32° 17' 48" N 069° 20' 55" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Shin Warsak
Generic Name: Warsak

Mountain

32° 14' 46" N 069° 30' 37" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Ghwaikhwa

Locality

32° 14' 45" N 069° 32' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kalati Pal

Intermittent Stream

32° 14' 30" N 069° 30' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zirtatai

Mountain

32° 14' 00" N 069° 31' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Dargai Kut

Intermittent Stream

32° 14' 00" N 069° 31' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zir Gwazha Narai
Generic Name: Narai

Pass

32° 13' 05" N 069° 31' 20" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Chinikhwa Pal

Intermittent Stream

32° 12' 00" N 069° 31' 05" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Tora Girda

Mountain

32° 10' 25" N 069° 31' 10" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Chinikhwa Chauwan
Variant Name: Chaman

Springs(s)

32° 10' 05" N 069° 31' 30" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Garai Pal

Intermittent Stream

32° 09' 55" N 069° 31' 15" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Malga

Mountain

32° 08' 50" N 069° 31' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Girdai Dag Chau

Spring(s)

32° 07' 50" N 069° 31' 30" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Larsun Gharai

Intermittent Stream

32° 04' 10" N 069° 30' 10" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Tarakai Range

Mountains

32° 14' 30" N 069° 22' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Nambotai

Mountain

32° 13' 10" N 069° 25' 10" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Kazha Punge

Cultivated Area

32° 14' 55" N 069° 25' 20" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Nambotai Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Stream

32° 14' 40" N 069° 25' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Zera Gwazha Pal

Stream

32° 14' 20" N 069° 28' 50" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Narat Nowa

Stream

32° 12' 10" N 069° 23' 40" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Perawanda Pal

Stream

32° 11' 10" N 069° 25' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Chinikhwa Algad
Generic Name: Algad

Stream

32° 10' 50" N 069° 29' 00" E

---------------------------------------------
Native Name: Katang Gwazha

Stream

32° 08' 00" N 069° 24' 10" E

---------------------------------------------

From the above table, I think you can begin to appreciate the magnitude of the problem of tracking down place names. In this tiny little 12 mile by 18 mile chunk of desolate rock and dirt, there are 146 place names to search through. And when you count the spelling variations that are common in the press accounts, that total can go up by a factor of five or more.

--Boot Hill

THE BATTLE ZONES WEST OF WANA (Thank Dog!)

--Boot Hill

Post #24 was meant to pinged to you folks...

--Boot Hill

If anyone has any interest or questions about how to convert the latitude and longitude coordinates, like those from the GEONames database in post #23, to kilometers, miles, etc., just FReepmail me and I'll provide the details.

--Boot Hill

Dog found this map.

--Boot Hill

Y'know, just when you think the US has been outwitted or is neglecting certain areas, one suddenly finds evidence to the contrary.

CapHuff, recall my speculation that Osama fled either North or South of the Waziristan region.

Now look at the location of this firebase north of Jalalabad, south of Kunar province (another alleged hideout area, as reported in the CSMonitor last year).

So the US is not only watching the Khyber regions but also north of it. This province of Afghanistan where Nanagalm is (Nuristan?) borders the NWFP of Pakistan and is also very close to Pakistani Kashmir, technically not sovereign Pakistani territory.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040329/wforces.html

U.S. special-forces commanders recently gave TIME access to Camp Blessing, located in Nangalam in eastern Afghanistan

--Observation posts lurk high on the ridges and are manned by Marines on 10-day tours

Yes, I remember what you said.

I did post another story about a base set up that Boot Hill pinpointed near Lwara here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1103822/posts?page=9#9

In that story our guys were adding significantly to the local security that seemed to be appreciated. The reporter had not really been invited, so it looked like he was invited to leave the area, but he reported nonetheless.

Interesting, how TIME got invited to Camp Blessing letting people know we're north of Jalalabad.

Update -

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FC25Df04.html

-More disturbingly, there have been confirmed reports of dissent among the ranks of the Pakistani para-military troops and the army

-the reaction has now reached dangerous levels as it appears to be spreading beyond South and North Waziristan to the other five tribal regions. Attacks have been reported in Khuram agency (Parachanar) on army troops. There have also been protest rallies in Khyber agency, with tribal leaders warning that if the army does not withdraw from South Waziristan, they will join hands with Wazir tribes there.

The country's top brass are obviously deeply concerned at the situation, but are compelled to push on with the operation as the United States is applying heavy pressure on Islamabad to remain committed. As a result, cracks are already appearing within the army as some ranks are unwilling to take on their countrymen. In one publicized case, a major refused to fly a helicopter gunship.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FC24Df01.html

-The ambush indicates that the tribals are well informed of the movements of the army, which is rushing extra troops into the area, as well as heavy artillery. These preparations reflect that in the coming days more fighting can be expected.

The resolve of the tribals to resist the intervention of the army into their region has been strengthened by Sunday's ruling by 70 religious clerics that resistance to the army has now turned into a jihad (a struggle to defend the faith). Copies of the ruling have been distributed in mosques all over North-West Frontier Province as well as in cities in Punjab and Sindh provinces.

Concern in Islamabad
The situation is not tense in the tribal areas alone. In the capital Islamabad, decision makers have been taken by surprise by the extent of the resistance, yet they are in an unenviable position.

I found this snippet over at DAWN today ..

US forces searching houses to arrest Taliban: ISLAMABAD, March 25: The US forces continued their operation to arrest Taliban leader Mullah Muhammad Omar in Southern Afghanistan, Radio Mashed reports. The forces conducted house to house search operation in Uruzgan province in this connection. The US and Afghan forces in a joint operation in Helmand province carried out house to house search for the identification and arrest of Taliban. (PPI) (Posted @ 15:00 PST

US forces are conducting house to house searches looking for the one eyed Mullah....

Wouldn't that be nice? Gotta ping Dead on this one, just for the tagline. :-)

Saw on FNC's website that Pakistan is reporting about 50 terrorists killed and IIRC over 160 captured in the ongoing seige regarding a supposed high value target.

Paki Prisoner Update.

Pakistan Finds Bodies of 8 Missing Soldiers
VOA News 26 Mar 2004, 19:39 UTC

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=E16F83A1-41E8-4995-BC59AB2EF95E44C7

Pakistani soldiers near Wana, Pakistan
Pakistan's army has recovered the bodies of eight soldiers missing since an ambush late Monday in a remote tribal area along the Afghan border.

Army spokesman, Major General Shaukat Sultan told the media in Islamabad Friday, the soldiers were killed in cold blood. <<<<<<- Beheaded, dismembered a la captured Indian Soldiers in Kashmir, eyes gouged out, penis cut and put in mouth, allah carved on their chests - maybe

He said their bodies were found near the town of Wana in the South Waziristan semi-autonomous region, where government troops have been searching for suspected al-Qaida militants since March 16. The military operation continues despite nationwide rallies organized by an alliance of Islamic parties. Protesters accused President Pervez Musharraf of pandering to American interests at the expense of Pakistani Muslims

swarthy....that needs to be in a stand alone thread.......so they killed the hostages.

Post if you want, - its some not all of the hostages/prisoners.

It may be turning into an ethnic Punjabi (paki army) vs Pushtuns - tribesmen.

A Pakistani on TV yesterday in London BBC mentioned Osama has fled to the far north - Kashmir - before this campaign started. Said his sources were the local tribal chiefs.

The diplomat worked in the PakiGovt a decade ago, so grain of salt. but sounds logical to me.