Well, let's examine, shall we. Your documentation states flatly that only venial sins may be covered by the Eucharist which would have us believe that the sacrifice of the alter cannot cleans mortal sin. People come away with cleansing "grace" for venial sins; but, just can't get to second base. So the sacrifice of Christ isn't enough to do it all - it must be done by the people themselves or their priests must impart to them graces through other "sacrements" to get them there. Yes, Dave, I am aware as I posted before of the treasury of graces from which the Church dispenses a little at a time to get people there. That is a blasphemous abomination that is nowhere in scripture. But your Vatican II documents which I have referenced here bears that up.
Play semantics with me now. Whether you say it renders Graces or you say it renders forgiveness makes no difference. The logical end result is the same. If the Ceremony provides an eraser for the chalk board, it doesn't matter whether the chalkboard is erased there or elsewhere. The eraser is the issue. And you've born out the point I made last night. You're preaching another Gospel. Christ sacrificed one time and sat down. Once. Hebrews states clearly as I quoted last night in chapter nine that it was sacrificed once and applied for all. Christ gave us a finished work - but through your doctrine, you've shredded it, turned it into an erector set and are dispensing nuts, bolts and pieces at a time and are telling the people they have to build it themselves.
You couldn't be more confused and less aware of it.
The sacrifice covers all sins and transforms us in to non-sinners. You're just wrong. Sadly, irretrievably, 16-years-wasted-to-learn-nothing, wrong.
People come away with cleansing "grace" for venial sins; but, just can't get to second base.
Duh, they go to confession for mortal sins. Duh. And this forgiveness also comes into the world via the Offering of the Eucharist during Mass. But not by partaking of the elements in communion.
So the sacrifice of Christ isn't enough to do it all - it must be done by the people themselves or their priests must impart to them graces through other "sacrements" to get them there.
People don't do it "themselves" and to seperate the actions of the sacraments from Jesus Himself and His Sacrifice is to totally miss the entire point. You're really hopelessly lost. Learn some humility and God may have mercy on your ignorance.
Yes, Dave, I am aware as I posted before of the treasury of graces from which the Church dispenses a little at a time to get people there.
No, Havoc, the Church grants us total forgiveness and utter perfection again and again. Being human we somehow find a way to mess it up with our petty selfishness. And then guess what? The Church is there to continue Christ's ministry and to make us whole again. There is no piecemeal approach. There is only forgiveness and grace.
SD
Havoc writes:
Once. Hebrews states clearly as I quoted last night in chapter nine that it was sacrificed once and applied for all. Christ gave us a finished work - but through your doctrine, you've shredded it, turned it into an erector set and are dispensing nuts, bolts and pieces at a time and are telling the people they have to build it themselves.
We take Havoc's posts referring to quoting chapter 9 of Hebrews to mean the post at:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1101337/posts?page=1128#1128
Hebrews has two main themes. The first is warning against falling into apostacy. The second is the propitiatory intercession of Christ.
Christ died once. But to leave it at that is incomplete. Let's look at Hebrews 9:25-27 (DR):
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the Holies every year with the blood of others:
9:26 For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world. But now once, at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Havoc translates Scripture to claim that Christ does not to keep appearing before God in order to offer sacrifice, but that he was sacraficed once and applied for all - and that's it. Scripture does not state that Christ does not re-present sacrifice before God. It states that Christ's once-for-all offering will not be like the offering of the Old Covenant priests who had to go in and out of the Most Holy Place every year. Christ entered the Most Holy Place, he is there to stay. If that was not the case, he would have to suffer and die over and over. He does not. While in the Most Holy Place, Christ continues his office as high priest, as stated in Hebrews 8:2 (DR):
8:2 A minister of the holies and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord hath pitched, and not man.
and Hebrews 9:24 (DR):
9:24 For Jesus is not entered into the Holies made with hands, the patterns of the true: but into Heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.
meaning that he no longer dies, but through his resurrection power provided the same flesh and blood as at the time of his death on Calvary, which is presented sacramentally on the alter and later consumed by His people.
Additionally, Hebrews 9:23-24, demonstrates that some kind of blood sacrifice is presently occurring in heaven, said sacrifice which constitutes the ongoing work of Christ's eternal priesthood, and that is why Hebrew 9:23 makes use of the word "sacrifices" in plural (n.b. - the Greek qusiva is plural and Greek manuscripts contain no textual variant. The same plural appears in connection with Old Covenant sacrifices as noted in Hebrews 5:1, 8:3, 9:9, 10:1, 10:11).
Christ's sacrificial office is patterned after the priesthood of Melchiziedek who offered bread and wine (see Genesis 14:18), the repeated presentation must point to the bread and wine of the Eucharist, it is the only sacrifice of Christ repeatedly performed. This coincides with Malachi' 1:11's mention of plurality of location ("in every place")